Tori Crawford: Interviewing — If it's broke, fix it

Show Notes:

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Transcript:

Bekah: 00:15

Hello, and welcome to season one, episode three of the virtual coffee podcast. I am Bekah and this is a podcast that features members of the virtual coffee community. Virtual coffee is an intimate group of developers at all stages of their coding journey. And they're here on this podcast, sharing their stories and what they've learned. And we are here to share it with you here with me. Today is my co-host Dan.

Dan: 00:42

In this episode, Tori Crawford joins us to talk about her journey through the interview process that included about 53 interviews, 430 applications in a pandemic offer that ultimately led to her being ghosted by the company. She gives her tips and tricks, including recognizing that interviews are a two-way street and her hope for industry.

Bekah: 01:02

We start every episode of the podcast. Like we start every virtual coffee. We introduce ourselves with our name, where we're from, what we do and a random check-in question. Today's question is what is one interesting thing about yourself? We hope you enjoy this episode. Hey, I'm Bekah. I am from a small town in Ohio. I'm a front end developer. And one interesting thing about me is that my first pet was a hamster and I named it star scraper to the highest moon.

Dan: 01:51

Star scraper. Hi, I'm Dan. I am a front end developer from Cleveland, Ohio, and an interesting fact about me is that I play disc golf.

Tori: 02:00

Hi, I'm Tori I'm from San Jose, California. I am currently a back end engineer specializing in Ruby on rails and interesting a fact about me. Would have to be that I hopefully plan to retire in Ireland, someday. So on site. nice. Very, very cool.

Bekah: 02:27

Yeah. Um, thanks for being here with us, Tori. We are very, very excited to be talking to today. A little background about Tori. She is a software engineer, a blogger, and a mental health advocate. She graduated from the flat iron school software engineering program in February of 2019. After 14 months and over 15 interviews landed her first role as a backend engineer in June of 2020 since landing her first role, she's gotten married and is now an expecting mother with the aspiration of becoming a site reliability engineer. Also like to, um, say that Tori is a Steelers fan and she knows the value of square pizza. And that's very,

Tori: 03:09

very important to me. Very important. Ohio valley pizza is the best pizza that's right. I,

Bekah: 03:18

um, very much had some this weekend. So if you have not had that, Google it, you are missing out. And I am sorry for everyone who does not live in the Ohio valley.

Tori: 03:27

Um,

Bekah: 03:29

all right, Dan, you're missing out. It's mm-hmm it's. Uh, so Tori, I just love to get started with origin stories and I know our paths have overlapped in a lot of ways. We both went to flat iron, Ohio valley connections, Steelers fans, um, software engineers, moms. Um, but I wanna get more details about your story. So can you tell us how you got

Tori: 03:56

into software engineering? Yeah. So, um, We'll go back a little bit further. I guess I am a career changer. Um, I did go to flat iron school, um, as a bootcamp and, uh, previously I was an athletic trainer. Um, I went to school for five years. I got two bachelor's degrees and a master's degree. Um, and. Yeah, I worked for an east coast hockey league team called the Wichita thunder for a season. And it was a lot of fun. Um, but I was working like a hundred hours a week and it was an insane schedule to keep traveling constantly. I kind of learned that that isn't really what I wanted and, um, Yeah, it was like a hard wake up call. And I had to like reevaluate things and discovered that I didn't really have the same passion for athletic training. If it wasn't sitting on the bench on beside ice, watching hockey players dodging pucks sticks, you know? Um, so yeah, I. Reevaluated, everything kind of decided what I wanted to move into next. My now husband is a data engineer and he suggested, because he knew how creative I liked being possibly looking into front end engineering. And I learned HTML and CSS started to learn. JavaScript felt like I couldn't wrap my head around it at all. So , I tried to look for some structure, which landed me at flat iron school. And, um, it was there that I fell in love with Ruby and. Decided to completely pivot to back end and yeah, it just fell right into that, that fun spiral of then not really liking front end and despising JavaScript. Um, but you know, it's okay. Got through it. And I still, to this day, work with our front front end engineers at my company to like, keep those skills. Kind of like brushed up on because I struggled learning them so much. I'm not gonna lose them. So , yeah.

Bekah: 06:05

I love that. That's just a really great attitude to have. Um, I also love that you are a collector of degrees.

Tori: 06:12

yep. Um, lots of school

Bekah: 06:16

and also you've been coming to virtual coffee since almost the very beginning. I think the first tweet that I sent out in the beginning of April, um, you responded to, and I don't think maybe you made that one, but you made the second one and you've been here for a while. So I'd love to know a little bit more about like how you came to find virtual coffee.

Tori: 06:38

Yeah. Um, Obviously like through bootcamp, you and I had communicated a few times and I was already following you on Twitter. And, um, I feel like with the pandemic and everything, obviously the need for community was there. And before the pandemic, I really tried to go out and do a lot of meetups. And like I was driving an hour up to San Francisco to do a few different meetups up there, like a month, like once a month. And, um, when the pandemic hit, I kind of lost that. Um, And when you mentioned doing the virtual coffee stuff, I was like, oh my. This sounds amazing. Um, I was super excited and then of course I, I was in California and you're on the east coast and you're like, yeah, it's gonna be at 9 AM Eastern time. And I was like, I am not waking up at 6 AM. so I was really happy that the next time you move, like the Thursday, I think it was a Thursday meeting the next time. Um, Was at noon. And I was like, oh, that's totally doable. Um, so I started going to those, but yeah, it was just that need for community. And also like, while I enjoyed going to in person, um, events, it did suck having to drive all the way up to San Francisco. Whenever I wanted to do one. Um, while there were some in the south bay, they just were more along the lines of. Super educational, like technical interviewing, um, prep, which like I went to those, but the fun ones, where they would do like karaoke and like really like have like happy hour type things were up in San Francisco. And I enjoyed those felt a little bit more lax for me. Um, So definitely it was nice to be like, okay, well this, I won't have to drive an hour to get to. And then an hour back at like nine o'clock at night and so yeah, it was, it was a good, a good little like, yeah, I wanna do this. It's gonna be great doing something virtual. Um, and then, you know, pandemic is still going months later and we can't do anything in person yet. So this has become the new normal and yeah. It's great to have found my community that I really like, and I feel very accepted in, so, and I can be myself. It's amazing. Yeah.

Bekah: 09:02

Yeah. It's been great having you here and, you know, I so much admire your vulnerability and how much you've been able to share with the community, because, you know, just to have that, like closeness allows for such a stronger, a stronger community, when you can talk about things like that, the challenges that you're facing. So it's been

Tori: 09:23

great having you here. Yeah. It's been really nice. Being able to be open and vulnerable with a. 100%. Like, I really feel like I can come to the group with a lot of different problems that I face and someone's gonna be there to tell me that it's gonna be okay or like help give me advice. Um, so it's, or just like say that they relate and like we can discuss our feelings together and I. So unique and I really love it.

Bekah: 10:01

Yeah. I, I also love that very much about the community. And I think that, you know, being able to share these things also, you know, you don't feel alone in circumstances where you might feel alone. Um, mm-hmm

Tori: 10:16

that's so

Bekah: 10:20

you. Are maybe a prolific interviewer

Tori: 10:27

um,

Bekah: 10:28

I think probably not by choice and I just am was like, remember being so surprised at all the stuff that you had to go through as you were interviewing. So can you just talk through that journey a little bit?

Tori: 10:41

Yeah. yeah. Um, interviewing was. Crazy for me. Um, when I first graduated from flat iron school, I took about a month and a half off from when I graduated to when I started my job search. Um, so I started my job search. Late March or early April of 2019. Um, and it went until June of 2020. And, uh, I think I went through, I have a blog post on all of my stats and I think I went through 53 interviews. Um, it was crazy. I was talking to my husband last night and he was like, you know, like most people go through like, 10 in their lifetime or they like go through like a handful in their lifetime and you went through so many and I'm like, yeah, it was like quite a struggle at times. Um, I was getting through a lot of first round interviews getting through a lot of them. Um, I don't. Think that I have a real issue. Personality wise that like has red flags that like recruiters are like, Nope, we're not letting them go past. Um, so like that's nice. Um, I got really good at doing those interviews, but technical interviews were the tough part for me. Um, definitely just like nerve wracking at the beginning. I. At some points, like, honestly, like I cried before the interview, I was like, so stressed out and nervous and just like, felt so down on myself, like, I'm not gonna be good at this. Like, this is like, it's so much pressure to like one have a time limit. Two have like one to who knows how many other people sitting there, like watching you code? Um, I was still. Not confident in speaking out loud while coding, like I could do it, but I still like to this day, I still feel like I'm not the most technical speaker when I'm talking, when I'm going through my code. Like, I feel like I don't say. Technically right thing all the time. Um, and a few of my coworkers always ensure me now. They're like, no, this is gonna come with months of experience. Like, you're gonna get the hang of it eventually. Um, this isn't something that you have to know right now, but like, you feel that pressure when you're in interview. Um, so those, those were where I was failing at first. I like would not make it past technical interviews. Um, Eventually, I like really worked on one. I was getting so many technical interviews that I was getting a little less nervous about them. I was feeling more comfortable in myself. I was feeling more comfortable speaking out loud. I was just like getting used to the process and, um, Things got a little bit easier. I felt more lax and you know, it was, I was getting past them a little bit more and eventually I started making it to final rounds and, you know, got ghosted a few times and , you know, it happened way more often than I would have expected it to. I got ghosted by a company who offered me a job. Mm-hmm so. That was fun. it was a crazy process going through, um, it was a rollercoaster ride. Yeah. And I'm I'm, it was all worth it in the end. I love where I work now. I love the people I work with. So, you know, everything I went through was completely worth what I'm getting to do now.

Dan: 14:44

Did you find yourself like having to, um, with the technical interviews? I mean, having all that practice makes sense that you would be more comfortable near the end of the process, but, um, as far as like, actually learn, like trying to, I don't get better at the technical part or anything, like, did you find yourself like trying to study or, or do more things or learn more things when you were in that, you know, stage.

Tori: 15:07

Yeah, I definitely did. Um, I actually started taking, I realized that the questions that were really getting me stumped and whatnot was like, I would be able to write out the solution, but it wouldn't be super efficient. And like, I would be asked the question, like, how would you make this better? Like, how would you decrease the, the time that it takes to complete. This algorithm or whatever. And, um, I, I wasn't able to answer it. Like I like big O time complexity. Like I, I had no idea. I wasn't taught that in bootcamp. Um, I didn't do a good job at going out and trying to teach myself it either at the beginning. Um, I realized that that, that was kind of my weakness. It was happening over and over again. And, you know, eventually you have to look at yourself and be like, okay, well, you need to learn this. You keep ask, getting asked these types of questions. Um, you're not going, gonna get past these types of interviews if you don't learn. Um, so I. Um, bought a U Demi course. I don't know if that's how you say it. U Demi, you D me . I bought a course on data structures and algorithms. Um, it was like mastering the coding interview and I went through. The whole data structures, section and big O section. And I learned so much and I was like, oh my gosh, this all makes so much more sense. Like, this is why I should be writing my code this way. It's so much more efficient. And like, oh, if I like assign in a ver a variable here, like that takes up more space. And I like I had no. Idea of any of those things. When I first started interviewing and I went through this course and like, I really felt like things were starting to click for me. And I started to get a lot better at interviewing being able to answer questions, feeling a lot more comfortable speaking. And, um, it was just, I don't know, it was like a whole different like confidence booster that I was like, this is great. Um, I just. I don't know, I feel like I kind of like blossomed and took off at that point that I was able to like, learn those small things. And I was starting to get past those interviews and I was like, okay, this was totally worth the money that I paid for this course. And I've like really starting to see progress. Um, and. I finally got an offer and then the pandemic hit. And then I got ghosted by the company that offered me the job and , um, and like a little bit of a confidence, ER, at that point, cause it was like interviews basically stopped for a month or two. And I was like, man, I just hit my stride. Yeah. I, I had just hit my stride and like really felt like things were going well. Um, And kind of got halted, but then things started picking back up again, started interviewing what the company that I'm working with now. And it was . It was great. And you know, the company that I work for now, didn't give me some crazy technical interview. Like a lot of other companies did. Um, I got to walk through an old project that I created for a different company. Uh when I interviewed through them, something that I was proud of, but I didn't make it past. That interview process. Um, but I was proud of the project that I built. I got to walk through it with, um, my director of engineering now. And, uh, , it was, it was a great thing of like him just like asking me a bunch of questions, why I built it the way that I did. And, um, the thought process that went into. Like why I chose to use technology XYZ and like all of these, like more thoughtful technical questions, um, that weren't like solve this crazy algorithm because you're totally gonna use this and

Dan: 19:19

work. Right. Was he, wasn't just trying to stump you or whatever.

Tori: 19:24

Yeah.

Bekah: 19:26

I also think that's a really good indication of the type of workplace too. Um, you just covered so much stuff, uh, that I wanna talk about, but I wanna back up for a second. Um, so I was talking to some people this weekend and one of the things I said is, um, when you hear somebody say no so many times. There's I think so many times you can hear it before you start to believe it yourself. Right. And I think that we see that happening with a lot of people who are interviewing for jobs and getting those repeat rejections. And I'm, I am curious like how you dealt with that because that's a lot. And I think, you know, that just says a lot about you, that you were able to keep working through that, but how were you able

Tori: 20:15

to keep working? Yeah. It's oh man, it's crazy. Um, it it's tough. I honestly, at the beginning I had a really hard time with it. Um, I think one lesson that I had to learn through the process of getting rejected so many times was. It's not personal. Um, as much as it's like, yeah, they're rejecting you. They're denying you. Um, you're not a good fit. It's like, okay. But you may not be the best fit right now for that company that doesn't always necessarily mean that you won't always be a good fit for that company. Um, your skills may not be where they need to be at that point for the role that you applied to. That's that's okay. It's it's not, it's not personal. It's, they're looking for specific things. You're not really meeting those criteria and that's, it's okay. You're not gonna meet the needs of every company. You're not gonna, I hate using this cultural fit thing, but like, you're not gonna fit the culture of every company. You're not it. You just, you can't take it personally. Like you really have to detach and it. At first, like, I, I cried a lot at the rejections. Um, I struggle. I mean, I'm, I'm open about this. I, I struggle with depression. I struggle with anxiety. This is like, that was something that like, I ended up going to therapy, like at the beginning of my job search because I was having a hard time handling the rejection thing and it was like really making my depression bad. And, you know, you just, you have to learn to, to kind of detach from it, realize that it's. Personal attack. It's not anything really against, against you and you kind of just, you, you have to like take a moment and reflect and be like, okay, well, why could they have rejected me? And, and like, in a way of like being detached, like think, okay, was I missing some certain skills that they were definitely asking for? Um, and that kind of gives you a moment to like, reflect and be like, okay, well, I didn't have skill X, Y, Z, or sometimes like, I even had to like think through the interview that I had with the person and be like, okay, was there something, was there something that I wouldn't have liked about the company? Did they ask me weird questions that like, I, that would like raise a little flag in my head. At that point too. Like, I definitely had a lot of those. I pulled out of interview processes with companies because like I was feeling red flags. Um, and you have to realize that the interview process goes both ways. And in that it's like a company might not be a good fit for you. You might not be a good fit for a company. And like, it's okay. It's nothing against that company. It's nothing against. You just like, you kind of have to see it from an outside point of view and try not to get down on yourself about it. I think it was really tough for me to get that into my head for a long time. But it made things a lot better when I was able to detach from it a little bit more personally and not feel like it was an attack against myself. Um, yeah,

Bekah: 23:57

I think again, like you're just dropping every gem out there. Um, I love that you are talking about. Pulling out of interviews. I think it can be so hard, especially when you're looking for a role and you're looking for one so long. And then to think like, man, there are a lot of red flags here. What should I, that has to be a difficult decision to make. And then, you know, also this idea, you are also interviewing them as well. I think that, you know, that is something that needs to be really emphasizes. People are going into interviews. I know I've done a really bad job of like using my gut to check whether or not like, okay, this feels really awful. And she's making me feel really bad right now, but I, I probably should keep trying anyway. Right. You know? And so, yeah, I think those are skills that, that those are skills, right? Those are things that you develop and that you

Tori: 24:56

build. And you definitely like build them the more you go through the interview process. And that was something that like, once I started having interviews, that made me feel really good. I started to realize how many interviews I had had that made me feel really bad. um, and like made those terrible interviews and like a lot of those red flags that like, I hadn't really recognized as red flags in the past. As I started having like interviews with companies who like genuinely cared about who they were, like the person that they were interviewing for, like interviewing, um, it wasn't like there are some companies that you are just on a line and they're just like bringing you through the process and you're just a number. Um, but then there are also interviews who care. The candidate and their time, there are, there are companies that will pay you for trial periods. When I had that happen, I got paid for a week of work because the company wanted to trial me and, you know, it was, it was great. It was very like breathtaking. It was like, oh my gosh, this actually does happen. Um, so, um, yeah, so there there're obviously companies. Care about their candidates, um, and treat them correctly. There are some companies that treat you like you're just another number. And I think that one thing that you really have to remember when you're going through the interview process is like I said before, and like you just said, Bekah is that. The interview process is a two way street. Like you are also interviewing the company as they are interviewing you. Um, that is one thing that I like really, really like drove myself home with all the time. I like prepared questions before every interview. I was like, I am going to ask them all of the questions that I need to know to know if I want to work at this place because yeah. I wanted a job really bad, but like, I wasn't gonna put myself in a bad. Work environment just because I wanted a job really bad. Like, I, I know that like, it's, it's such a, a hard thing, but I, I put myself in. A work environment where I was sexually harassed in the past. And that is something that like I would ask about diversity. I would ask about like questions of how they go about dealing with things like that in the workspace. And those are tough questions to ask during interviews. But like, if it's something that's important to you, like you need to ask them. And if the company like towers down, when you ask them those questions, it's not somewhere that you wanna work. Um, so like it. It's something that like, you have to interview the company too. And, um, at my current job, like I, I am interviewing people to work, to work with us and, um, I am. I I'm always thrown when candidates don't prepare questions and they're like, yeah, I don't have any questions for you. And I'm like, I literally left like 15 minutes for you to like, drill me with questions. I'm ready for them. Like give 'em to me. Like you should also be interviewing us. Like, this is very important. Like, you should know that you wanna work here. Um, and. Yeah, I think, I think it's so important that like, you know, the questions that you wanna ask a company, you, you have to know yourself and know what you want out of a work environment. And I think that's really important in the job search process.

Dan: 28:39

You, um, you mentioned how this process kind of a skill that you build up, right? The, the, like the way to be an interviewer interviewee. Um, I was wondering if that sort of skill changed the way that. Search for jobs or like apply, you know, like change, which, which companies you would apply or which positions you would apply for things like that. As you sort of went through the process, um, you know, if you could talk about like how you try to find different positions to apply for, um, or if that changed, you know, from the start to the end.

Tori: 29:10

Yeah. It definitely changed from the start to the, to the end of it. Um, at the beginning I was kind of applying to like everything. Everything that I could find. Honestly, when I first started looking for a job, I wasn't, I wasn't being picky about working backend. I was like, I'm gonna apply to front end positions. I'm gonna apply to full stack. I'm gonna apply to backend. I'm apply to everything. Um, and. Man. That was, that was a mistake. I think. I mean, like you, you spend so much time putting in applications. And I think even at the beginning, I wasn't tailoring my resume to meet the job application. Like if I would've done that, I would've spent like so many more hours because I, it was, it. Ridiculous that I was applying to as many companies as I was at the beginning. Um, and towards, I don't know, a few months in, I started to realize that I needed to do quality of a quantity. And I started tailoring my resume and cover letter to the applications I was sending in. Um, I was really trying to make contacts with people who worked at the company. Um, I, I really started to, to try to like put my best foot forward, rather than just like sending in an application to the unknown , um, where like hundreds of other applications also go, uh, I started to realize when I was applying everywhere that often more often than not, I, I wasn't really getting replies back at all, rejections or. Like interest for interviews. Um, and I was applying to big companies and small companies. I, yeah, I, I was applying to everything under the, under the sun. And then eventually I learned that, um, I learned what I wanted. I like, I started to realize through some of the interview processes that I was going through. The bigger companies were the companies that did those like crazy technical interviews that were like, here's this crazy algorithm solve it. And the startups were more the ones of like giving take homes or like walking, like pair programming more like Laly I guess, like it wasn't such a high stress type of environment. Um, so. I think that like, eventually through that, that interview process of like going through the interviews with different types of companies, I learned that I wanted to stay more towards startup. Um, it seemed like it was more the environment of what I would want to work in because I mean, I think we all kind of recognize that these crazy algorithm interviews are just, they're not applicable to. The daily job that you do there. It's not a, I don't know, it's not an indicator. I don't think it's an indicator of like how good you're gonna do at this job. I, I really think that it's, it's messy. And, um, I think that there are startups and smaller companies that are kind of going against the grain of what the larger companies are doing. And. I think that I personally made the decision that I would rather work for a company like that. So, you know, started tailoring my, um, applications towards startups and smaller sized companies. And then eventually I made the decision. Yeah. I wanna work back end. I don't wanna do full stack. I don't wanna do front end, started tailoring them more that way. Um, So I think through the process, I started applying to everything and then I like funneled down and eventually like became a little bit more specialized in what I was applying to. And I started, I realized that I was getting more responses, more interviews that way. So that was. That was great. I think that's so

Bekah: 33:29

great. And I think that especially, uh, when you're fresh out of school or bootcamp or whatever, when you're first applying, there's this tendency for a lot of people just to start learning everything at like a very. Shallow level, because I think that's going to make them more, um, relevant in job search. But I think that you're right specializing or really understanding yourself and what you are interested in can, can be useful. I mean, it also can help you to be more excited about what you're doing and more relaxed. And when you're in an interview and you can. Act in that way, it definitely makes you a, a candidate that seems confident. I think.

Tori: 34:15

I think you definitely come off better. Um, so

Bekah: 34:19

you have touched on this a couple of times, but like, obviously there's an industry problem with interviewing, right. And we see more people talking about it. Um, and I wonder what you think about, or if you have ideas about how to improve the interview process, but like also keeping in mind. Is it an industry problem? Is it a, um, my bootcamp or my university didn't train me well enough before going into the job market, a combination or, you know, what are your thoughts on, you know, this process and making it better?

Tori: 35:02

Yeah. Um, I think, I think first to touch on the whole like bootcamp and, um, computer science degree thing. I think bootcamps do, um, some bootcamps are great. Some bootcamps are not just like some computer science degree programs are great and some are not. Um, I, I have a friend who got a computer science degree. Like he knew a lot of the, the theory and principal stuff, but didn't really know how to code. Um, and he struggled to find a software engineering job. He ended up finding a support job, um, and has kind of been stuck in that. But he's finally got outta finally got out of it recently and just moved to Columbus, Ohio and is working for a startup and I'm super happy for him. Um, but it took some time for him to like pull out of that. And I think. I also struggled with my interview process because I came from a bootcamp cuz I didn't know the computer science like stuff. I think there's weaknesses in both areas. Some bootcamps, maybe great at teaching that stuff. And they like the students come out well rounded. Some computer science degrees are that way. Um, but there's weaknesses in everything. Um, and. I think that not everybody comes out well rounded and to, as an industry to expect . Brand new, like entry level engineers to solve these crazy algorithms. Like, I mean, even senior engineers, I've like, I've heard, I've spoken to a few of them who are terrified to go back into the job market because they would have to do these things. They don't feel comfortable doing it either. Which like, I think just that fact alone that like, it doesn't matter what level you are. Whether you're entry, you're senior you're principal. Like it doesn't matter. Like you can be just as afraid of these crazy algorithm questions as anyone else. And I think that that speaks to the fact that like somebody with 10 years industry experience can't solve it. I. I, why are you giving them if it's something that somebody has been working, like doing this job for 10 years, like you would expect them to be able to answer it

Bekah: 37:44

easily. But they can't

Tori: 37:47

and it like it's, I, I definitely think it's broken. I think that there's been this idea that solving these algorithms is a great way to get to know how the candidate thinks. Like, if you wanna know how the candidate thinks or plans, then like speak to them about planning. Or like, like ask them those types of driven questions. Don't try to pull that out by asking like some crazy, like, weird question and like try to get about it and get to it in a roundabout way. Like that's not, it doesn't seem efficient. It doesn't like, I, I don't know it to me. It just, everything seems kind of broken and I feel like. One day, one of these big tech companies was like, we're gonna ask this question and we have a great interview process. And like, it's really hard. And then all of these other companies were like, oh, we're gonna implement that too. And it's just been like a copycat process. And a lot of companies wanna be like these big tech companies. So they just, they just copied the process and. Whether it's good for their company or company or not, whether it's beneficial for them or not. And it's, I don't know. I think, I think like a lot of things, the head of industries set a lot of standards that they kind of like set those standards and everybody follows just, it's not necessarily, uh, Not necessarily the best thing and it's tough and it's tough to go against the grain. But I think that there are a lot of startups out there and a lot of smaller companies and even some like decently large companies that are going against the grain. And I think that that's wonderful that it's being recognized that our interview process is broken. It's great that people are like really standing up and being like candidates are people too. you need to respect their time. You need to respect, like giving somebody a take home project or something. That's gonna take four to six hours. That's a huge chunk of their time. I like, I just, if you're not gonna pay them for that work, it's crazy. Like doing a two hour, one is still a lot, but I that's more reasonable. It's I, it's just tough. I think that there's a lot of, a lot of things that are wrong in the interview or yeah, like in the interview process right now. Um, and I'm not sure that there is a blanket way to fix it. Like it's really gonna be case by case company by company. And I think just recognizing that there is an issue is the first step to fixing the issue. Um, and I think having more people. Being outspoken about it is like really important because it's gonna start pushing, um, it's gonna start pushing people that are the heads of these companies and whatnot to like, kind of look at their processes and kind of. Adjust and see what could be going wrong and like why people are unhappy and, you know, we'll see.

Bekah: 41:23

Yeah. I, um, was talking to somebody recently about the situation in this, um, what you said it not being a blanket. Um, Like one, one answer for it. Right. And that we're looking at people and people are complex. I think really sticks out to me. Um, in finding this idea of like a, a person first interview process is important. And, um, one guy was saying, well, well like, well, we have to standardize it as best as we possibly can. And like, I, anytime that I hear that, it just makes me cringe a little bit because you can't really standardize the process. And I think if you're trying to standardize. Sanitizes things in some way, and you don't see the complex person and you're not allowing for different perspectives. And in that way, you are probably cutting out some really amazing candidates because maybe they don't perform well while you're staring at them or with a timed test or something, you know, there's all of these problems and it's not just in tech, but, um, not allowing for. I think diversity of approach or allowing a candidate to fully explore what they would do is really not good for the company or the industry

Tori: 42:47

either. No, definitely not. And it feels that would be really hindering on some people like you're not letting them. Like show you their full potential. You're not letting them have a creative mind or like showing you something that you wouldn't have thought of. Like, if you're, if you're setting a standard, it's you also, you cut people out. Of the process. Like I, when you start setting standards, I think that's when you really start to get into the issue of like really messing with minority people and you start messing with. A lot of stuff. Yeah, go ahead, Dan.

Dan: 43:41

sorry to, I was just gonna say, then you just start hiring people that are good at the stand getting through the standard process. It's like, this is the same problem with the standardized tests in public schools, you know, um, all of the, like then all of the learning will be about trying to, you know, Get through the standard test or whatever it is. I mean, this happens in schools, but like, if that was the process with interviews, you know, and it already sort of happens, there's so much effort gone into, um, like that course you bought was like, you know, you used it to learn a specific thing, but it was geared towards passing technical interviews. Right. Like that was the whole thing. Yeah. And, uh, and like the there's a lot of people, you know, making money on that sort of thing anyway, and so much time and effort, and then you get your job and. You never use any of, any of that stuff ever again. Right? Any of those skills? I mean, obviously not totally true, but there's just so much, so much, uh, you know, sweat that you put into getting good at something. And then like a lot of that isn't transferable or doesn't transfer, you know, to what you're actually doing anyway. Um, yeah.

Tori: 44:47

And you hear all these like crazy stories of people who essentially train themselves for the interview process and then they get in and they can't do the job. Yeah.

Bekah: 44:57

100%.

Tori: 44:58

No it's. Yeah. And like, how are these companies filtering for that? You can't, because like you're not actually testing for things that. Job applicable , which is

Dan: 45:09

crazy. Yeah. It's a hard problem. And it's, and it's a hard problem from the employers side too. You know, the smaller company is the easier, I think it is. So the company you started working for, you know, you're a man, I don't remember what position, but whoever hired you, you know, like sat and like worked with you, like talked with you for a while. And that's really, I agree the best way to find if a person fits all of that stuff. Um, but. That's time consuming on their end, you know, to, and you get a large company where there's literally millions of people applying for a position and the, you know, they can kind of see how this stuff happens. Not, not that the solution is good, but like how they got there. Right. You know, just because just so many people applying and there are programmers on the other end. You know, like trying to optimize it, like, you know, like Bekah was saying, I'm sure the person you were talking to that said that we should standardize the process was, uh, in development somewhere. I'm guessing, you know, cuz that's the kind of, uh, like that's the kind of answer that you jump to first. Right. If I see a problem, I'm like, okay, how can like, how can we fix this with my hammer? That is, you know, that is like development, you know what I mean? but it's not a development problem. Right. It's a people problem. So mm-hmm I. I don't really have a point there. It's just a it's a very complex problem.

Tori: 46:29

Um, yeah, it, it is a very complex problem. I absolutely love everything that you said. So it's yeah, it's, it's a tough topic. It's a really tough topic.

Bekah: 46:44

Yeah. Yeah. I, and I think I step one is talking about it, right? yep. Thinking about it. Step one on a larger scale, if you can, and just like realizing and identifying. The things that are wrong. And sometimes it's hard to put those things into words, I think. Or like, you're not exactly sure why they're wrong, but just acknowledging like, something feels bad about this. Right. And then kind of building from there and talking to other people is. Is moving in the right direction. Right. You need to get some momentum, so start there and then keep moving forward. And then, you know, definitely have a support system as you're going through the interview process because it is

Tori: 47:28

hard mm-hmm yeah, it's really hard. And I think honestly, virtual coffee kind of came about right at the perfect time for me because. Interviewing did slow down a ton. And I really felt like I had lost my momentum and was feeling kind of down on myself. And when interviews started going well again, I was like posting a bit and I was getting cheered on and, you know, it was just, it was great at the time. And also when sad things happen, like you don't get a job, like you're told, like don't give up and, you know, it's, it's a great community to be a part of. And I think. I don't wanna say we're all cheerleaders, but like , we're all very positive and, um, very much like pushing for one another to do our best and to keep our heads held high and not get too down on ourselves. So it's great. Wanna, thank

Bekah: 48:28

you so much for being here. Tori, you said so many awesome things. Um, what are some things that you have coming up or things that you're interested

Tori: 48:38

in? Yeah. Um, well, one huge thing coming up. I'm expecting my baby in my . Um, but yeah, besides that, I am kind of just trying to get used to, you know, working I'm about to hit my six months mark of officially working as a software engineer and I'm really excited to hit it and I'm. I'm almost getting to like full autonomy and working on my own, which is great. Um, my coworkers are great, confident, confident boosters. They are like, I'm like, uh, can we pair on this ticket? And they're like, you got this, you got this, like, okay, that happened this morning again. it keeps happening. Um but yeah, it's, it's fun. I'm. I'm just excited to continue working and building my backend skills and. I am hoping to move into site reliability engineering in the future. And I'm like slowly reading through the Google site, reliability book. And, uh, I'm working with our site reliability engineer and our head of engineering who used to be an SRE, um, going through some things, uh, on our product and learning a little bit about that stuff as well as my backend. So. It's fun. They're grooming me. They're getting me ready and I'm really liking it. So it's great.

Bekah: 50:11

that is very awesome. Um, okay. So if our listeners want to find you, how can they do that?

Tori: 50:20

Yeah, I am over on Twitter and I need to look up. I never remember my username, your underscore T O

Bekah: 50:31

O R R. We'll include it in the show notes. Yeah. And then you're also blogging

Tori: 50:36

over at dev two, right? Yes, I am. I've it's, it's been a little bit since I've posted on there. Um, I've been writing on my work, uh, on my company's blog a bit more, um, because when I joined, I was like super excited to start writing for the blog and, um, Yeah. Yeah. It's I don't know. I really enjoy it, but I've got a little bit more technical stuff over there. Whereas my blog on dev two is kind of a mix of technical stuff. And then also just like interview woes and tips and, you know, so if you need any help with interviewing, um, or dealing with like the mental aspects of interviewing, I've got a lot of great blog posts over there.

Bekah: 51:21

Yeah, you definitely do. And we'll post that too. So thanks again for being here. And we'll talk to you soon.

Tori: 51:29

Yeah. Thank you for having me.

Bekah: 51:34

Thank you for listening to this episode of the virtual coffee podcast. This episode was produced by Dan OT and Bekah harra, Weigel, and edited by Dan OT. If you have any questions or comments, you can hit us up on Twitter at virtual coffee IO, or you can email us@podcastvirtualcoffee.io. You can find the show notes@virtualcoffee.io. Plus you can sign up for a newsletter to find out what we've been up

Dan: 52:00

to. Please subscribe to our podcast and be sure to leave us a review. Thanks for listening. And we'll see you next week.

The Virtual Coffee Podcast is produced by Dan Ott and Bekah Hawrot Weigel and edited by Dan Ott.