Ayu Adiati - Working through burnout as a self-taught developer

Show Notes:

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Transcript:

Bekah Hawrot Weigel: 00:05

Hello, and welcome to Season 3, Episode 3 of the Virtual Coffee Podcast. I'm Bekah. And this is a podcast that features members of the Virtual Coffee community. Virtual Coffee is an intimate group of developers at all stages of their coding journey. And they're here, on this podcast, sharing their stories and what they've learned. And we're here to share it with you. Here with me today is my cohost, Dan.

Dan Ott: 00:31

Thanks, Bekah. Today, we're talking with Ayu Adiati. Ayu's originally from Indonesia and now based in The Netherlands. She's a self-taught front-end developer and prolific technical blogger. And she's on her way to break into tech after being a stay-at-home mom for her daughter for the past four years. We talked with Ayu about the impact of community, being a blogger while she's learning web development, and her recent experiences with burnout.

Bekah: 00:58

We start every episode of the podcast like we start every Virtual Coffee. We introduce ourselves with our name, where we're from, what we do, and a random check-in question. Today's random question is, if you could teleport to anywhere for 15 minutes, where would you go? We hope you enjoy this episode. Hey, I'm Bekah. I am a front-end developer from a small town in Ohio. And if I could teleport to anywhere for 15 minutes [silence] I don't -- I like -- I can't decide if I want like a nice, beautiful location or if I want, like, really good food. I -- well, I don't know. I don't have a really good specific place. But I would go-

Dan: 01:51

Ooh.

Bekah: 01:51

-somewhere that has a beautiful location that has good food and drink. So [chuckles], that's my answer.

Dan: 01:59

I -- man, that just made me start thinking like, "Okay, well, now I need to know the rules." Can you take things with you when you teleport back?

Bekah: 02:07

[Chuckles] You can do whatever you want.

Dan: 02:09

[Laughs] Okay.

Bekah: 02:10

You're a universe [??] [laughs].

Dan: 02:10

I mean, that just changed my whole -- alright. Hi. I'm -- hi, I'm Dan. I am from Lakewood, Ohio, I do front-end development. If I could -- so, I was going to say something like, somewhere, maybe like the top of Mount Everest or somewhere where it's generally like, not great to be, or the -- it's really hard to get to, you know? But it would be cool to just like be there for 15 minutes, kind of see everything, whatever. And by the time the 15 minutes are up, you know, oxygen deprivation is probably setting in, I'm pretty cold, so I'm ready to go home. But you said food, which made me think, "Okay, well, you know, can you take things with you?" And in -- so, maybe, my answer is more like ... you know, Fort Knox [laughs].

Bekah: 02:54

Vaults of a bank?

Dan: 02:55

Yeah, vaults of a bank [laughs]. Right. Somewhere other, you know, other secret -- and now I'm thinking, oh, maybe there's like- like that secret room in the Library of Congress that was in, you know, one of the "National Treasure" books, you know? Or maybe "National Treasure" movies. Somewhere to, like, find a bunch of secrets or something, you know? Anyway, I'm going to stick with my original answer, officially, as Mount Everest. And we'll -- we can move on from there [laughs].

Ayu Adiati: 03:24

Hi, I'm Ayu. And I'm front-end developer from Indonesia, originally, but based in Netherlands now. And if I can teleport myself for 15 minutes, I would split it into two. I would visit-

Dan: 03:40

Cool.

Ayu: 03:41

-my sister in Australia and my brother in New Zealand. That would be nice. Because we haven't seen each other for ... almost three years now?

Dan: 03:51

Oh, wow.

Ayu: 03:51

So, yeah.

Bekah: 03:52

Wow.

Dan: 03:53

Yeah. Well, that's- that's a good answer. I live too close to all of my family, so [laughs] --

Bekah: 03:58

Yeah. My brother lives down the street. Literal- literally have run to my parents' house and to my other brother's house. So --

Ayu: 04:06

That's nice.

Bekah: 04:06

Not that far.

Dan: 04:07

No, it's- it's nice. I -- we- we do it on purpose. But, you know, it's ... fine. I could take 15 minutes and probably get away from all of them [laughs].

Bekah: 04:14

Yeah, I like the take up. Splitting. That's -- that was good.

Dan: 04:18

Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of- a lot of --

Bekah: 04:20

Welcome, Ayu. We are very happy to have you here with us. And for everyone who's listening, I just wanna say a special thank you to Ayu. Because she's doing this super late, so we can make sure that the time zones matched up, and we could get her on here. So we are very, very happy that this works out.

Ayu: 04:39

Thank you for having me.

Bekah: 04:41

We always like to start with everyone's origin story, kind of how they got to this point where they're learning tech or in tech. So, if you could, just give us your background.

Ayu: 04:53

Well, I have a hobby as a photography. And it was starting from my photography hobby. And I did the freelancer for stock photography. And then I have my daughter, and then when she started, like, one and half year, and -- it becomes like really fun. Because she start to, you know, be aware of the camera. So, yeah. It's- it's from there. And then I thought it would be nice if I have like a blog or something, like, to have this personal documentation. So I was like, browsing anything about WordPress or any blogging things. But then, I bumped into FreeCodeCamp and then I just tried it. And from there, I just like it. I mean, like, there's no going back from there. It's like, I want to know more, and more, and more. That's how I finally got into coding.

Bekah: 06:00

I love that. It's always so great to hear how people discover it, like, through other things that they've enjoyed doing. And then it just kind of becomes something that you want to do more and more of. So you said -- you mentioned FreeCodeCamp. Is that -- how long did you stay in FreeCodeCamp, or are you still doing FreeCodeCamp, or, you know, what are the resources that you found really helpful?

Ayu: 06:23

I actually not. I mean, like, for something that I learned for the first time, I'm more an audio-visual person. So I like video more. And -- so, a friend of mine, she was like, "Why don't you try Udemy?" So, I start with Udemy. And I like it. I mean, like, when- when I see, you know, like, I see and then I- I code along with it, then it's just clicked. And -- but I still use FreeCodeCamp to get the certifications. Like, you don't have to finish all the modules, right? And you can just jump into, like, make all the projects that- that are needed and finish certification. I did the first certification of ... web responsive dis- design, I think? Yeah, it was it. And-

Dan: 07:14

Mm-hmm.

Ayu: 07:15

-yeah. Since then, I use more video from YouTube or something like that. But after I understand something, then I can use the other resources like blog articles or something like that. Yeah. But for the first time, it's always video.

Bekah: 07:38

I think that's great. And it's always interesting to hear the different approaches that people take, because I know for me, I can't watch the videos at first. I'm the opposite. So I need to read through it and then I can watch the videos. I was like, "What is happening here?" So it's -- and that's just another reason why content creation in all forms can be so great. Because everybody learns differently. And those different approaches, one works for me, and one works for you, and something different works for somebody else. And so it's great to be able to have that out there.

Ayu: 08:11

Yeah. True.

Bekah: 08:12

So, Ayu, I think that I may have known you longer than anybody else at Virtual Coffee.

Ayu: 08:19

Yeah, I think so, too [chuckles].

Bekah: 08:21

Because I think, I- I- I met you shortly after I started learning to code, I think. We were both doing -- we were both in the group Moms Can Code, and that's how we met. And we were both learning to code with kids at home. And-

Ayu: 08:35

Yeah.

Bekah: 08:36

-as we all know [Bekah and Ayu laugh], that can be a challenge.

Ayu: 08:40

Yeah.

Bekah: 08:42

So- so, what- what was it like for -- what has it been like for you? Because you are also self-taught. You're pursuing this, not in the confines of a bootcamp or in a traditional school setting, and you have a kid at home too. So, there's just a lot of different moving pieces there.

Ayu: 09:01

Yeah. I start to learn to code when she was -- my daughter was two years old. And -- I was self-taught, and then, I think that I tweeted- I tweeted one time that -- how to juggling between the- the house chores, and- and the kid, and also learning. And then I remember that one of who were response to my tweet was you, Bekah. So -- and you said, "Why don't you join Mom Can Code?" And I was like, "Oh, there's a Mom Can Code. That's nice," you know? So, yeah. I joined it, but yeah, with the time differences, I got more coworking with the European time zones' moms. And we we were like, learning things that are different one to another. Like, one is like doing the back end, and the other is the front end. But, I mean, like, that's for the first time that I felt like I'm not alone, you know? Like, I don't care what they're doing, but it's like, I'm not- I'm not learning by myself. And I -- we can have, like, all our- our kids, like, you know, my kid were crying, and the other one like, "Hey, stop it!" There were -- or something like that. But, yeah. It's- it's not easy. And when she was two, my -- the time for me to learn was only on her nap time. And then I have to wait until the whole house is sleeping, like around 10 at night. And then I start learning from that until 12, one in the morning. And, yeah. It's getting easier now after she start with her elementary school. But it was like, hell before [chuckles]. It's like, I- I couldn't find any perfect time to learn and I only have like two hours in total for the whole learning. So, yeah. So I cannot imagine that you have four, Bekah, and you still pulled it out [laughs].

Bekah: 11:14

You know, it- it was one of those things where you start to get used to being able to pivot pretty quickly. Like, "Oh, my kids are playing, I'm gonna sit down at this computer." And then my mind would just like switch on. Like, it knew, it has to do it right in this second. But, you know, I had a lot of help from ... my parents would watch the kids or if I had a- a project to do -- I remember one weekend, my husband was out of town speaking at a conference. And so they took the kids. And it- it was the same thing like you were talking about. You're just trying to fit in this time. And so I stayed up so late, and then woke up the next morning to try and get it done cuz you're trying to fit it in. But at the same time, you don't wanna be forming, like, bad self-care habits. Because then, that just leads to frustration and not wanting to do the thing that you want to do. And then being mad that you don't wanna do the thing that you know you want to do, right [chuckles]? So it's all -- it's a whole ... I don't know. Thing to juggle and it's not just about learning. It's about, you know, the growth and the changes that you're facing yourself. And it's a different role that you're taking on and trying to figure out how all these things work together. And so it- it can be really great, but certainly, it- it can be really frustrating.

Ayu: 12:38

True. True. And especially that I don't have my family here, right? And my husband works. So I have to do everything by myself. So, yeah. It's like -- and people said that, "Oh, you have, like, lots of time because you only stay at home." And -- oh my god. I feel like I wanna cry every time I hear that. Because, no. If we can have, like, more than 24 hours in a day, that would be ... perfect, you know? But we don't have it. So [chuckles] --

Bekah: 13:06

Yeah. I always say that's like my biggest challenge. There's not 36 hours in a day [chuckles].

Ayu: 13:10

Yeah [laughs].

Dan: 13:13

I imagine it -- at least, Bekah, knowing you, I -- if you had 36 hours in a day, you would find a way to fill all of that, and still [laughs]-

Ayu: 13:21

And still not enough.

Dan: 13:22

-and still you wish there was more [laughs]. Yeah. It's just a guess. Just a guess.

Bekah: 13:25

That is accurate.

Dan: 13:27

I -- yeah. It's -- that- that switch off, I mean, we -- my kids are in daycare, you know? My wife and I both work. But during the pandemic, you know, at- at the beginning, everything was shut down. Daycare was shut down, you know? And so we were trying to do that. We were trying to juggle the kids, and work, and, you know, Emily and I would switch off, you know, watching the kids. And it's -- for- for me, that -- for me, I struggled really hard with that context, switching like, Bekah, you said you got- you got good at it. That was really, very hard for me, you know? It's- it's like -- and honestly it was less some -- it wasn't that you sitting down at the computer part. It was the- the going back from computer to kids switch. That was the- that was the struggle for me, you know? I- I- I just have so much respect for- for people who are parenting like full-time and- and trying to learn or- or work, and like, through all this. I -- that I don't know how you do it. But it seems like you've been managing it [chuckles].

Ayu: 14:23

I don't know. I still don't know how to do it, Dan. I still don't know [Ayu and Dan laugh].

Bekah: 14:28

I mean that it's the truth, too.

Ayu: 14:29

Yeah.

Bekah: 14:29

I mean, people will ask, like, "How do you do it?" Like, "I don't know," [chuckles] you know?

Ayu: 14:34

No [chuckles].

Bekah: 14:35

You just do the things that you- you have to do.

Ayu: 14:37

Yeah. Exactly.

Bekah: 14:39

We talked about these frustrations that can be — that you're facing, that we're all facing — as we're learning these things, and as we're parenting, and going through a global pandemic together. And- and so, I think, sometimes, really leaning into the things that encourage us or inspire us can be really useful. Have there been things or people along the way that you found have helped you continue the journey or prevented you from giving up? And maybe some of those times that were really hard?

Ayu: 15:12

Yeah. I mean, like, I got burned out like so many times, right? And- and -- well, I've been active on Twitter, and that helps. I'm doing the hundred [days] codes of challenge. And, every time I said like, "Oh my, god, I don't know what to do," and then some people, like, random people, like, "No, you can do this." And yeah, I got -- I get my spirit back. And -- but there are also times, especially when you're a self-taught, right? And you- you don't- you don't have anybody to talk with. Like, my husband, he doesn't know anything about webdev. So I can not like, "Oh, I'm having trouble with this code." And he would be like, "What? What are you -- what do you mean?" Right? So, yeah. I mean, I got the one time burnout. Like, that's pretty recently. That I think, like, "Okay. I don't think that this is for me." I'm like, I'm gonna- I'm gonna just quit." And I was like, I got so- so surprise actually with- with that thoughts. Because I never thought like -- yeah, I got burnout. But then, like, you know, like, I'm taking break and stuffs, and I would be fine again. But this time it's, like, different. I already took break. I mean, like, I already procrastinated. But still, like, I don't know how to get myself together this time. Like, I got panic attack. It was like, I learned, and then one time, like, we- we were having this project team, right? I -- I'm- I'm trying with some VC members to have this group project about vanilla JavaScript. I mean, I got burned out with React -- with learning React before, and then I thought, "Oh, this is a good chance because it's vanilla JavaScript. So I can, like, take a step back and then do what I know," you know? But because so far I learned by myself, doing everything by myself, when it's in a group, it's a different story, right? You have somebody else to collaborate and- and everybody has their own thoughts, like, on how to approach something, which is not the approach that I probably would take. So it's kind of made me confused. And then I got, like, so freaked out. And I was like, "What is happening? Where are we? And, I don't know. My god, this is vanilla JavaScript. And I've done this, like, so many times, but how come I'm not following this?" You know, it's like, "No, I think I cannot do it." And it just feels like I wanna stop. So I kind of pull myself a little bit off from everybody for like a week or so. But then I thought like, "No, I- I need to talk to someone about this," right? So I start to talk to some of my friends, and they were all like, "Hey, we are all struggling." Like, "You can do this." And then, like, one of them even say to me, like, "It's actually good that you- you have that thought of quitting because you don't understand things. Because if you have that thought, it means that you know so many things, so you get confused, you know? It's not like you don't know anything." And I was like, "Yeah, you're right [laughs]." So, I was like, "Okay." And that's, you know, like, people don't want to share they're struggling, right? I- I don't know. Maybe because they think that -- they don't want people to think they're weak, or ... I don't know. They- they have their own reasons. As for me, I feel more or less embarrassed. Like, I've been learning for so long, and then suddenly, like, I know nothing, you know? And I don't -- I just don't want to share that. But if I really want to do this, I want to step forward. Then, I think that I should share this struggle with, at least, somebody that can -- that I know that can hear me out, listen to me, you know? And it was a good decision that I made. That I just, you know, shared- shared my struggles. And then, people support me. I mean, like, if you- if you don't share, nobody knows. And you just have to deal it yourself. So, yeah. It's- it's been a journey [laughs].

Bekah: 19:39

Certainly a journey. You- you said some things in there that- that really struck me. And so you talked about this idea of community, and isolation, and sharing. And I think that, you know, all of these things go together. And especially when we're in those tough moments where we tend to isolate from other people. For those reasons that you spoke about, you know, it's self-doubt, and not thinking you can do it, and being embarrassed or afraid to share things. And I- I got a piece of advice pretty early on from someone. And they said, "You don't share it for your sha- yourself. You share for other people because other people who are going through the same things can recognize that, 'Oh, I don't have to do this in isolation. I'm not the only one that feels this way.' And then, that's how community is formed." And I just always loved that idea because it- it can be so hard to share those things, and to feel alone, and to feel like ... I dunno. You're- you're not where you should be, right? Like, I -- it's -- it happens every week. I look at someone else and I'm like, "Oh, wow. I- [chuckles] I should- I should be able to know what they're talking about," and I don't, right? And then it's like, "Oh, don't fall into the comparison trap." Number one. But number two, like, embrace that community of people that's around you. And, you know, for me, Ayu, you've been such a huge part of my community. And I don't know how you do it, but I feel like there are times when I am really, really struggling, and I won't say anything, and then I get a DM from you checking on me, and I'm like, "Oh, okay. Like, [chuckles] Ayu's here. This is what I needed," you know? And so for me, that's been such a -- an important piece of- of all of the things that have happened to me since I met you. Because it's nice to have that connection and to know that there are people that are- are- are willing to- to care about you.

Ayu: 21:32

And- and I- I learned so much from- from your trauma stories, Bekah. I mean, like, you've been so open, right? And- and you reach so many people with your story. And- and I mean, like, there are plenty of people that- that have the same feeling like how you feel, but they cannot let it out. So I thought, like, when- when I was struggling, I thought, like, "Okay, this is for- for me, for myself," you know? I mean, like -- and- and ... I also think that maybe I'm not the only one. Maybe- maybe there's also people out there that having the struggle the same as I do. And if I open up, maybe those people can open up as well. And they- and they could, like, feel a little bit relieved that, "Okay. I'm not the only one. And I- I can- I can talk about it." Like, it's- it's okay to not feel okay, you know? So, yeah. And thank you so much because, I mean, like, you taught me how to do that.

Bekah: 22:32

And now I'm gonna cry.

Dan: 22:38

I -- you know, you- you talked about sharing, you know, your story, especially regarding the burnout and, you know, the -- we'll post on the- on the show notes. But you wrote a really great piece about it about two week -- a couple weeks ago, or a week ago, or whatever it was. And I- I- I just wanted to call it out because I- I love to reading it. And I loved that, you know, you shared- you shared the struggle part, which is ... I agree is very important and very helpful for people. But I- I very much loved how you -- a lo- a lot of the article is more about how to survive it, you know -- how- how to sort of recognize those feelings for what they are, and then how to sort of survive it, and move on. And I just really appreciated it. I don't- I don't have [chuckles]-

Ayu: 23:21

Thank you so much [laughs].

Dan: 23:22

-I don't really have a question or a point, but- but I appreciated it. I mean, you know, it -- and- and a lot of it is just the -- allowing yourself to sort of be not okay or whatever, allow yourself to take a break or step back. And I think it's so important. It was- it was a good.

Ayu: 23:39

Yeah. I mean, self-care is really, really important. I mean, like ... this is, like, one point in my- in my learning journey where I really, really want to rush things, you know? Like, I've been learning for ... two years? Two and half years now? And I feel like, why am I so slow? So I'm trying to, you know, speed up a bit. But I think, like, because I start to understand things, so I really want to speed up again, speed up again. But I didn't -- I -- you can say that I ignore my limit, where I should take a break, but I don't. Because no, I want to be in this momentum, you know? Like, I- I want to keep it up, but now this is my limit to take a break for a bit, but I didn't. So I think that's where most people also don't aware where they really want to push, and push, and push forward. They need to, you know, like, take a step back and- and just review things, and just slowing down a bit, and -- they don't think about themselves, you know? Like- like, they can get burnout or can get frustration. So, yeah. I hope that my experience can, like, reminding people as well that the -- they need to, you know, take a step back once in a while.

Dan: 25:12

Yeah. And it- it's hard to do [chuckles]. Or it can be-

Ayu: 25:14

Yeah, true.

Dan: 25:14

-you know, i-i-it can be hard to do.

Ayu: 25:16

True. True.

Dan: 25:17

At least in my personal experience [chuckles].

Bekah: 25:20

Well, and I think, too, when you take that step back, sometimes it's hard to get started again, right? There's this fear of losing momentum. Like, well, I was there. And you have to backtrack a little bit if you take a break. And so for a lot of people, I think, it's ... I don't know exactly how to describe that feeling, whether it's being upset with themselves or having to go back or getting -- being hard on yourself and thinking like, "Well, I should know this stuff," right? But it's okay to have to backtrack. It's okay to start from a different point that you ended at. But I think, like you're saying, there's just not that many people that are talking about those things, you know? It is okay to take a break.

Ayu: 26:05

Yeah.

Bekah: 26:05

It is okay to be at a different point than someone else's going to be. And I don't know. I al- [chuckles] this is gonna sound silly, but I always used to compare myself to Kent C. Dodds, which is like, not fair in any way shape or form cuz he's been doing this a long time, but I'm like, "He's got four kids. How come he can do all this stuff," right? [Chuckles] Well, it's a little bit different. He actually -- he wrote a- a newsletter ... for mother's day, one year, I think, that talked about how much his wife does to support him and their kids. And it was like, "Oh, okay. I- I get- I get this," right? Like, there's a lot of support for the things that he's doing and he's been doing it a really long time. And it's not a reasonable comparison. I'm not really that reasonable. So it's- it's not surprising that I would do that. But, it -- and it's not even, like, look at the people who are learning alongside you. It should never -- if that's the motivation, then there's always gonna be a point where you start to really get down on yourself because everybody moves in different ways and in different paces. And you know, sometimes you'll hit a plateau. And it'll be really hard to get back up like the mountain. But then- but then you'll gain some momentum. And then you'll go fast again, right? Or, you know, maybe you're- you're study all the time. Everybody learns differently. Everybody can apply things in different ways and has different strengths. And I think we just failed to recognize that complexity, and we try and make it this really simple story of success. And we forget all of the, you know, things about being human that go along with that story.

Ayu: 27:54

Yeah, true. And I kind of forget that. I mean, like, I was thinking, I'm learning for two, two and a half years, and I'm- I'm going so slow. But I forgot that most of the days, I only have two until three hours ... a day to learn, right? So I cannot compare myself to someone who can spend like more than five hours a day to learn. So, yeah. I need to remind myself that ... you're- you're going forward. Only that-

Bekah: 28:28

Yeah.

Ayu: 28:29

-you have, like, less time than other people. So, you cannot compare yourself to other people, but -- this is your time, right? I mean, I do the best way -- I mean, like, the best that I could within two and three hours a day. And- and that's actually good, you know? Like, when I got exhausted, I still can save some time to learn. So, I- I think that I've been too hard on myself or something like that? And not ap- appreciate myself [laughs]? I don't know. But, yeah. I'm trying to remind me -- myself about that. Like, "You're- you're doing good. You're- you're doing okay," you know? So --

Dan: 29:12

Yeah. I- I mean, you are [chuckles]. You're doing great. I can't ... try- trying to fit that learning and- and it's not just the hours, right? Is -- you've talked -- you were talking about how it's like a little bit during nap time and then, late at night.

Ayu: 29:26

Yeah.

Dan: 29:26

Which is probably not the best, you know? Your brain's probably not in the best shape for learning-

Ayu: 29:31

No.

Dan: 29:31

-at that point either, right? And so --

Ayu: 29:33

Yeah.

Dan: 29:33

That's what I mean. You're -- you know, you're- you're- you're working with what you have. And the progress you've made seems ... I don't know. Seem -- from where I'm sitting, seems incredible. You also have been just a prolific blogger, for like, over the last ... however long it -- couple years? And I've -- that has always been a prob- I mean, like, that you ... I don't know. I've read, I think, probably most of everything you've written. But like, it's- it's- very impressive. I was wondering how you approach, like, mixing that into your normal routine of like learning and stuff like that?

Ayu: 30:08

No. Blogging is- is completely different thing. I mean, like, I really have to make a time to write a blog. And English is not my native, right? So, I'm not native English speakers. So, I mean, I need like three to four hours to write 600 to 800 words. Can you imagine? So, yeah. Mostly, like, when I do blogging, if I have an idea, I will do the bullet points. And then from there, then I will try to, you know, like, talk about the bullet plain -- points, a little bit like explanation, something like that. It- it helps me to- to write a- a little bit faster.

Dan: 31:02

Yeah. Yeah.

Ayu: 31:02

And if you see, like, my blog's style, most of them always have, like, the bullet points [laughs]. So, yeah.

Dan: 31:08

Oh, I had --

Bekah: 31:10

Well, I think that's great for readers too.

Dan: 31:12

Yeah. I think it's a really effective way to- to write. Absolutely. That's how I- that's how I usually write the -- when I blog once a year. I did the same thing. [Laughs] A-as opposed to [laughs] yours. Once a week. I s- yeah, for me, it's once a year maybe. But I- I -- I've just -- I'm- I'm impressed in, especially on a limited time schedule. Like, you have -- that you have both the -- I don't know. The dedication, the willpower, you know, to- to- to do the blogging. Because it's, I mean, it's optional, right? Nobody's making you do it, or it's not like part of any of your, I don't know, certifications or anything like that, right? And so you're- you're- you're just doing it on your own. And it's impressive that -- like, blogging is one of those things where I'm always, like, "Yes, this month I'm gonna get into the habit," you know? [Laughs] And it never happens because it's -- nobody's making, you know- you know, nobody's asking me to write on my own- on my own website. So, I'm always impressed by-

Ayu: 32:06

No, I mean, like-

Dan: 32:06

-people who can --

Ayu: 32:07

-the- the -- it's actually one of the things that- that get me into learning to code as well. Because beside that I want to ... have my photos showcase, I also want to -- wanted to write about my experience, like, living- living in another country, and with a toddler, and stuffs. But I finally didn't write anything [Ayu and Dan chuckle] until, thank you VC, for having that a monthly challenge of November, where we have to write, right? And it's actually -- that's one of the things that can ... hmm. How do you say? Make ... how do you say that? Ac- accountable? Make me accountable?

Bekah: 33:01

Mm-hmm.

Dan: 33:01

Mm-hmm.

Ayu: 33:01

Hold me accountable? Yeah?

Dan: 33:02

Yeah, yeah.

Ayu: 33:03

And, yeah. It's ... when we do something together, right? And then, like, yeah. Everybody's like, "Oh, I already wrote this, and I wrote this," and I was like, "[Excited voice] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm gonna do that!" You know? [Dan laughs] Like, it's- it's fun! And even after the- the monthly challenge done, I was still, like, in my, you know, I- I was, like, in my mood to- to- to write. And that's why I- I keep writing.

Dan: 33:33

That's awesome.

Ayu: 33:33

But it's all started from VC.

Bekah: 33:36

As -- in November, we ran our first monthly challenge and that was -- November is NaNoWriMo. So, National Novel Writing Month. And the goal is to write 50,000 words, which is about the size of a novel. And so, we said, "Hey, why don't we all work together, and try and pick -- get -- hit 50,000 words this month, writing and adding to our blogs?"

Dan: 34:01

Like, collectively.

Bekah: 34:02

It- it -- yes. Not individually [laughs].

Dan: 34:04

Right [Dan and Ayu laugh].

Bekah: 34:06

And it turned out to be a lot of fun! It was kind of a last minute thing. And a lot of people participated, a lot of people were writing for the first time, and we didn't hit 50,000. But I think, you know, we didn't really gear up either. It was like, "Okay, we're- we're gonna do this." But I really think this November, we could hit 50,000 words and it'll be a lot of fun. It was great to see everybody sharing, and asking for feedback, and- and getting, like, new and exciting ideas out there. But I also wanna bring up -- so, you're writing across platforms. And, not only that. But you're, like, recognized on all of the platforms that you're writing on. Like, you're consistently one of the top bloggers in ... you were recognized -- well, why don't you talk about that first? [Chuckles] Or I get ahead of myself. I'm so excited about it. You're writing on all of these different platforms and your choice to do that. And you know, how- how are -- I- I wanna say that I don't think you give yourself enough credit, right? Because everybody is giving you credit here and saying like, "Ayu is an amazing writer and all these ways!" And [Bekah and Ayu chuckle] ... I mean, you can --

Ayu: 35:21

No. I mean, like, I w- I write, because I want to write, right? It- it was- it was only for the sake of the monthly challenge — at the beginning. And I don't have any, you know, like a website or something like that. So I started with a platform called Hashnode where I can have my own [domain] address, but I can use their platform. And then from there, I crossposted to DEV, and then- and then there's a CodeNewbie, and then I crosspost it as well to CodeNewbie. I never think about, like, gaining ... like, gaining readers or something like that. Because I thought -- I even thought that no one will- will ever read my blog. And I write- I write the blog posts purely only for myself, you know? Like, I- I want to have my notes out there because my notes are so cluttering, And I want to look back to it. And, yeah. Just -- I write for myself. That- that- that was the first thing. So I- I- [laughs] I didn't even know, like- like, when you say, Bekah, like, "Oh, how do you do that?" I have no idea. I mean, like, I never even thought that anyone would read. So --

Bekah: 36:47

Well, I think, everyone is reading. And also, you were one of the CodeNewbie Spotlights in ... April. Yeah. April.

Ayu: 36:56

Yeah, April.

Bekah: 36:57

You were a CodeNewbie Spotlight.

Ayu: 36:57

Yeah.

Bekah: 36:58

Talk a little bit about that. Cuz that's awesome.

Ayu: 37:00

Yeah. I mean, like, it- it- it was a nice surprise. I mean, CodeNewbie, like, sent me a- a- a DM on Twitter, and, "Hey, do you want to be our April Spotlight?" And I was like, "Oh, yeah, sure!" I mean, like, "How come?" You know? [Ayu and Dan laugh] I have no idea. I mean, like, it's- it's a big surprise. And, yeah. So, that-

Bekah: 37:27

Well --

Ayu: 37:27

-that was pretty much about it. I mean, like, I- I- I didn't see that it's coming, you know?

Bekah: 37:34

I mean, I just love that. I love the picture of you and your mom in- in that spotlight. It's just such a beautiful way to kind of end that there. And, you know, I don't- I don't know if you wanna say anything about your mom, but I know that she was a big supporter --

Ayu: 37:49

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's- it's actually- it's actually kind of- kind of nice story, I think. Like, my mom -- we were, we were really like best friend. I mean, like, we were really close. And ... she suddenly got diagnosed with auto-immune. And it's actually pretty much maintainable, if you- if you have like a good medicine, right? And one of it is, like, steroids. But at that time, in- in where- where she lived, the -- that's -- there's not enough steroids. So she got worse, and worse, and worse, like, really fast. So, like, one day -- and- and she didn't want to receive call for like a couple of weeks. Because she was like so -- in so bad- bad condition. And she didn't want to say anything. But one time, like, finally she received my phone call, and then, I told her, like -- we talked a lot. We- we talked almost two hours at that day. And I told her, like, "Hey, I want to participate in this photography, you know, photography challenge. And if I won," I said, "then- then I would be, like, in this magazine in Germany," I said. And, "They- they would pick up, like, twenty- twenty pictures. And- and- and the top winner would be, like, going into the magazine in Germany." And she was like, "Oh, you should make me as your model," you know? "And- and I think that you would win with my- with my photo on it. And I really want to see you on the magazine." And I was like, "Yeah, right [chuckles]." And then, like, I didn't even get into the- the- the challenge of the photography. And, like, not long after that, it's like a week or two weeks, something like that, then, I got a phone call from my aunt. And she said, like, "I think that you should go back. All of you." Like, me and my siblings. "You all should go back because, like, she's getting worse." And we were, like, "Oh, okay." So we flew, right? We flew there. And after I was there, five days late -- later, she passed away. So I didn't- I didn't get into a the magazine, of course, because I didn't- I didn't ... participate in- in the photography challenge. And with this CodeNewbie, and suddenly -- no. After- after the -- my profile got into prod- CodeNewbie, and then I remember this, you know, like, this conversation. Like, when she said, "I want to see you on that magazine." And this time, like, it's not the magazine, but I- I mean, like, I'm on an article. And that's me. That's me there. And that's why I took my mom picture there. Because like, "Hey, mom," it's like, "You're there now," you know? Like, "It's not, it's not on the photography thing that we talked about, but you're there on- on my -- on an article about me." So, yeah. I hope that ... she liked it.

Bekah: 41:21

It's such a beautiful story. And it's so nice to hear you share it and to talk about your mom. And- and- and that support and to see how it just all kind of come arounds, and, you know ... yeah. I just- I just -- really, really beautiful.

Ayu: 41:43

Yeah. I- I just hope that she proud of me. I mean, like ... yeah [chuckles].

Bekah: 41:48

I mean, Ayu, you're doing so much. I mean, you're taking care of your daughter, you're learning, you're ... bringing up -- helping so much with the community, and being such a- a great person to have in our community. And to, you know, have your support, and all of the things that you share, and, you know, you've- you've touched so many lives. So I- I feel like she, most definitely, is proud of you.

Ayu: 42:18

Thank you. Thank you so much. And I'm- I'm- I'm very, very grateful to find Virtual Coffee, to be honest. I mean, like, thank you Bekah, Dan, and Kirk, and Sara, and, yeah. Everybody in VC, like, very, very supportive and very, very loving. I mean, like, this is the first time that I feel like I'm not alone, not only in the journey of learning, but VC is more like a family to me. And even though we haven't met in real life, but I feel like I'm so close to everyone as if like, yeah, I- I've- I've meet you all for a thousand years. So, yeah [Dan chuckles].

Bekah: 43:02

Yeah. I mean, that's been my experience too, you know? I always struggled with finding friends, and fitting in, and kind of understanding like my place in things. And it's just been really nice to be able to share that with other people, and for other people to except -- accept me where I'm at in that place, and- and to be able to talk about things more openly. Because I don't know if- if you knew me five years ago, I'm a- a much different person than I was. And before, I never would have shared any of that. I just would've, like, bottled it all up. But it's nice to have a community that you feel safe and supported with and to be able to talk about those things like, "Wow, I'm just really, really having a tough day today," you know? And- and just to -- even just somebody giving me a heart emoji is like, sometimes that's all I need. I just need someone to acknowledge that I am having a hard day. And it's- and it's just a really special place. I haven't found anything else like that.

Ayu: 44:03

True. True. I feel- I feel the same. I mean, like, when was I find Virtual Coffee? It was from your tweet, right, Bekah? And I was, like, "Hey, I'm having this virtual coffee." And, you- you post the Slack- the Slack link, and I did join the Slack. But I wasn't saying anything at all. And I was like -- I don't know. I mean, like, I'm still learning. And all people here are already developer, you know? And, like, I -- how can I s- I- I didn't even dare to say hi. Hmm. I was, like, "Oh, my god. Who am I?" You know? [Laughs] But, yeah. So I, finally, after -- I don't know. A couple of months, I think. And finally, I say hi and introduce myself in the Slack. And then I went to the meeting for the first time. And I was like, "No, everybody's, like, so nice." And- and everybody's, like, maybe already have more than 10 years experience, but they're still, like, so humble and so caring. And I was like, "Yes. I think I know that I'm in the right place." In a heartbeat, I just knew that, "Yeah. This is- this is my community," you know? Like, it's- it's nice. It's always nice to be in VC. I mean, like, you can see me almost every day on Slack. Oh, I'm so sorry for that. But I just cannot help it [laughs].

Dan: 45:37

Oh, we're certainly glad that you are here in Slack and- and- and at the meetings. It's- it's -- I don't know. It's always good to see you there.

Ayu: 45:50

Oh, oh, oh, one time, like, I usually, like, do cowork at nights, right? Because I learn at nights. And most of the time, I- I cannot really talk because my husband and my- my daughter's super sensitive to voices. But the -- for today, I already told my husband, like, "Don't get bothered because I'm gonna talk loud." [All chuchkle] And, yeah. So usually, in the coworking channel, like, people don't really hear my voice because I always typing. Like, people say something, and I always, "Wait! I type," right? [Ayu and Dan laugh] And then, one time, Glen, he was like, "I will give ten bucks to anybody who can [laughs]- who can make her talk [Ayu and Dan laugh]. Because I never hear her voice."

Dan: 46:40

That's amazing [laughs].

Bekah: 46:44

That is so funny.

Ayu: 46:45

Yeah.

Dan: 46:46

Well, now we can just send him this podcast episode, right?

Bekah: 46:49

That's right.

Ayu: 46:50

Yeah, right?

Bekah: 46:50

Who gets the ten bucks?

Dan: 46:52

Oh, yeah. Who gets it? We'll split it.

Ayu: 46:54

Split it [Ayu and Dan chuckle].

Bekah: 46:58

I guess you've given a lot of advice throughout this podcast and through all the blogs that you've written. So I have -- I guess, two more questions for you. And the first would be what has been your favorite blog post to write, if you have one? And then, the second question would be, if you had advice to give to somebody in your shoes, what would that advice be?

Ayu: 47:23

My favorite- my favorite post so far is the last one to be honest. It's the massive burnout ones. That -- when I -- that's the fastest one that I- that I wrote because it's really coming- coming from -- like, I don't- I don't really filter it. It's just coming out. And, yeah. That one is my favorite blog posts. And if I have ... oh, what- what did you say again?

Bekah: 47:56

If you had one piece of advice to give to someone in your shoes, what would it be?

Ayu: 48:02

Well, if you- if you're a self-learner, like, try to find a community. Because it's -- it really, really helps you. I mean, like, it's -- it helps me a lot. I get more confident and- and I have people to support me. And when- when I can, I also- I also can support someone, right? And it makes you feel like you're not alone, but also valuable for somebody else. And if you want to start your blog, don't think twice. Just- just write it, and- and- and don't think that maybe nobody will- will read it or maybe it's not good. No, it -- just- just write it. I mean, like, it's -- you write it for yourself. That's- that's the first thing that you only have to think. Like, write it for yourself, and then the rest will come.

Bekah: 49:00

Yeah, that's so great. Well, Ayu, thank you so much for being here with us today on the podcast, but for being such a great part of the community. It's been so wonderful to have you here with us.

Ayu: 49:11

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

Dan: 49:13

Yeah, thank you.

Bekah: 49:17

Thank you for listening to this episode of the Virtual Coffee Podcast. This episode was produced by Dan Ott and Bekah Hawrot Weigel, and edited by Dan Ott. If you have questions or comments, you can hit us up on Twitter at VirtualCoffeeIO, or you can email us at podcast@virtualcoffee.io. You can find the show notes, plus you can sign up for our newsletter to find out what Virtual Coffee's been up to on our website at virtualcoffee.io.

Dan: 49:47

Please subscribe to our podcast and be sure to leave us a review. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next week!

The Virtual Coffee Podcast is produced by Dan Ott and Bekah Hawrot Weigel and edited by Dan Ott.