Andrew Bush - Mobile Development and Giving Back to Community

Show Notes:

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Transcript:

Bekah Hawrot Weigel: 00:07

Hello, and welcome to Season 5, Episode 6 of the Virtual Coffee Podcast. I'm Bekah. And this is a podcast that features members of the Virtual Coffee community. Virtual Coffee is an intimate group of developers at all stages of their coding journey. And they're here on this podcast, sharing their stories and what they've learned. And we're here to share it with you. Here with me today is my cohost, Dan.

Dan Ott: 00:31

Hello, Bekah. Today, we're talking with Andrew Bush. Andrew is a mobile engineer specializing in React Native. And so, if you've been to virtualcoffee.io recently and checked out our members page, you might have noticed, we now have -- we have all of our members there, and now we have a little tags that say what roles that they have if- if people are, you know, volunteering, helping out in Virtual Coffee. And so, Andrew is one of the people that has been helping out with us for a while. He's been doing -- he's been helping lead the Monthly Challenge team for the past ... I don't know. How long has he been? [Chuckles] I'm- I'm not sure. I can't remember off the top of my head how long. But it feels like a while.

Bekah: 01:10

[Laughs] Well, it is. It is been a while. Yeah.

Dan: 01:11

It feels -- yeah. It feels like to me, it's been while. And- and --

Bekah: 01:12

Since last year, for sure.

Dan: 01:14

Yeah. Yeah. And so, monthly challenges, you can read more about on our site as well. But we do a different challenge every month. And- and, yeah. So Andrew has been helping lead that group along with Aurelie and -- who was on the podcast-

Bekah: 01:29

Yes.

Dan: 01:30

-season ... I don't remember which season-

Bekah: 01:31

All that season throw together [??][chuckles].

Dan: 01:32

-she was on. Yeah, yeah. She was on- [laughs] she was on a while ago too. So, yeah. We talked about that for a while. And Andrew, also, he kind of talked about, you know, what it's been like leading the- leading the group and helping, you know, facilitates challenges, stuff like that. And we also talked a while about, you know, what it's like to be a mobile developer, some of his experiences with React Native and, of course, his journey through his career.

Bekah: 01:57

Yeah. It was great talking about that. And I li- really love that the tags recognize our members and what they're doing. I mean, not just because we wanna recognize our members, but also it helps other people to see who's doing what and how they can get involved in Virtual Coffee. And we actually have a new get involved section on the site. So if anybody is out there and wants to add a tag to their name, can fill out one of those forms and we can [laughs] --

Dan: 02:25

And they can get involved [laughs].

Bekah: 02:27

Yep [laughs]. That was good.

Dan: 02:30

Yeah. Yeah. So if you're listening and you wanna check that out, it's in the resources section, virtualcoffee.io/resources. And then, I dunno. Click through in there. It's in there somewhere. So, yeah. It was a good episode overall and I know you're going to enjoy it.

Bekah: 02:45

We start every episode of the podcast like we start every Virtual Coffee. We introduce ourselves with our name, where we're from, what we do, and a random check-in question. We hope you enjoy this episode. Our intro question is, if you could live in an animated movie, what would it be? My name is Bekah. I am a technical community builder from a small town in Ohio, and I would live in ... I feel like it needs to have some kind of magical aspect to it, because that would be more fun. I was going to say "Beauty And The Beast" cuz that's my favorite movie. I'll just stick with that.

Dan: 03:40

Pre beast conversion or post? Like, is he still The Beast? Basically, I mean -- and all the other, you know, fun --

Bekah: 03:50

Yeah. Cuz there's no more magic if he's not The Beast.

Dan: 03:53

Right [chuckles]. Right, right. That's my -- that was my question.

Bekah: 03:54

It's kinda boring.

Dan: 03:55

But if he's The Beast, then, you know, you got a whole other problem to deal with.

Bekah: 03:59

Yeah. I wonder if his fur is soft.

Dan: 04:02

You know, I actually just watched it with the kids. They -- you know, it was their first time, like, a week or two ago. I don't watch it for a long time. S-so, like, all the furniture are his servants or whatever, his household staff. Well, what -- like, did he not have furniture at all before that? [Bekah laughs] Or did they all turn into furniture and then they, like, just threw out the existing, non-alive furniture?

Bekah: 04:25

Well, I don't think everybody is furniture. I think it's kind of got that Encanto vibe, where there's like magic in the house. So, like, the head of all of the cups is Mrs. Pots. But not every cup is a household worker. They just have the magic now.

Dan: 04:41

Oh, wait. You're -- so you're saying, like, alive cups, but they weren't actually people before. They just like --

Bekah: 04:47

Ye- right. Just like-

Dan: 04:47

The magic is like turning -- okay.

Bekah: 04:48

-Mrs. Pots, and Chip, like, they were people. But there are other cups that move around and do things-

Dan: 04:53

Uh-huh.

Bekah: 04:53

-but that's just the magic that is commanding the-

Dan: 04:56

Got it. Got it.

Bekah: 04:58

-enchanting the house.

Dan: 04:59

[Laughs] Okay. Alright. Hi, I'm Dan. I do web development in Cleveland, Ohio. And, I think, the first thing that popped in my mind was "Moana". The, you know, the life there seems pretty simple, you know? On an island plus canoeing is one of my favorite things and, so, that'd be cool. Maui seems like a cool hang. So I'm- I'm going with- I'm going with Moana as my- as my animated universe to live in.

Bekah: 05:28

Are you taking your rain shell with you?

Dan: 05:30

Uh, probably. I won't have to use it very much. But, you know, that -- I'm sure it rains there sometimes. There's like a rainy season, right? I would- I would think. Thanks for- thanks for that [chuckles].

Bekah: 05:40

Just making sure you had it. I know it's important to you.

Dan: 05:43

It is.

Andrew Bush: 05:45

And I'm Andrew. And I'm a mobile developer in the React Native space based out of Wisconsin. I- I think I'd live in the valley in Encanto, but I have a bit of a recency bias. I just, like, that's the most recent animated film I've seen. But I- I -- the -- in the intro sequence, there's these -- so it -- it's in Columbia. And then the intro sequence, there's these kids who, like, are, like, running with little cups of coffee, and they're shaking, and the coffee splashing out of the cups. I'd be like one of those little kids. That's my vibe.

Dan: 06:23

Nice.

Bekah: 06:24

Yeah. [Chuckles] that is -- my- my kids love, or my five-year-old loves that part where she says -- Mirabel- Mirabel says, "That's why coffee is for grownups." They just laugh. Every single time [Andrew chuckles]. So, welcome, Andrew. Thank you so much for being here with us for this episode of our podcast. And we always like to get started with the origin story of each of our guests. So what brought you here to the state of your Andrew developer career?

Andrew: 06:59

All right. I should've expected a question like this. I gotta work on my elevator pitch anyway. Yeah, it's sort of a ... I don't know if there is a traditional path, but I would say mine is non-traditional. I -- the first time I ever wrote code was HTML, not even like full-blown HTML. Just tags to make my- my MySpace page cooler. And then, like, a long time later, I thought I'd go to school for that. And, you know, that didn't go super well- [laughs] super well for me. I -- my major wasn't partying, so they kicked me out. And, you know, I did -- you know, after sorta like, you know, trying to figure out what I wanted to be when I grow up for many years, I was like, you know, I actually really liked programming and I really liked web development, specifically. So I- I have sort of sorted things out. And I, actually, I went back to school again, got an associates degree and- and thought, "All right. I just need to get a job. I need to get into the space." And I- I took an interview for, like, a ve- a very generic you're gonna write code, but they didn't tell me what. And I ended up writing React Native code. And I did not expect to be in a mobile developer space. And I actually really enjoyed it. And that's where I've stuck since then. And that's gotten me to here.

Bekah: 08:35

Yeah. I -- so, this is always been fascinating to me because I don't know that many React Native developers. So can you talk a little bit about how you ended up there? Cuz it's not, you know, at least, I don't know a ton of people doing React Native development. First of all, wait. Maybe let's pause [chuckles]. And what is React Native development? And then answer my other question.

Andrew: 08:58

All right. Yeah. So React Native is a cross-platform framework for ... mobile apps. They are into the web space now. So you can write all in one stack and then deploy wherever. But yeah, the original intention is so that you can have, you know, a single codebase in single skill sets to be able to write Android and iOS applications. Because native Android applications are gonna be in Java or Kotlin and na-native iOS, that's gonna be in Swift. So, rather than having, you know, especially in a professional environment distinct teams, knowing distinct stacks, and trying to always keep those things in sync, React Native is one of the solutions that was out there. At -- when I first started, we started with Native Scripts, which is just another one of the options out there, and then ended up pivoting because of the community support for React Native it's made by Facebook. So there's just a lot of support and fu-funding behind it. But, yeah. It's -- at its core, it's JavaScript. But professionally, I've always used TypeScript on top of it.

Dan: 10:14

That's cool. And so, does that work out? From what I understand, I've never really worked in it, except from dabbling. But from what I understand, you have the ability to do some native stuff, if you need to, or whatever, in, like, real app, you know, in- in non-classroom apps that you'd like the kind of stuff you're actually working on. Do -- does the cross-platform thing, like, honestly, like, work out really well, as oppo- like, or do you need to -- do you end up having to do, like, little -- weird little things for- for, you know, for different platforms from time to time?

Andrew: 10:46

Yeah. Well, it -- in my experience, which I would, you know — for context, I've- I've been doing this for -- I've been doing it professionally for about three years. So, in my experience, rarely do we actually need to write native code. Occasionally, you'll f- run into, like, I'd -- we had some weird issue with splash screens at my previous job, and the solution wasn't native solution. But a lot of times you find you can just get a package that'll handle that for you. But, yeah. Actually, most things are pretty seamless. The- the -- I guess the overhead you get is recognizing that since it builds across multiple platforms, it's not always gonna, like, com- when it gets compiled, it's not going to behave in exactly the same way every time. There's always like little corks and sometimes it's specifically on device. So we've got, like, we -- when- when you write it, you -- frequently, when you're delving, you're, like, using a simulator or an emulator. And -- but then, like, before you roll out to production and — as our QA is telling me when I'm doing dev work — to -- I need to test on physical device because that uncovers more issues that you don't see. So that's like the big thing with it, I guess. More so than ... I dunno. I sort of lost the plot there [chuckles].

Dan: 12:22

More so than- than different platforms and stuff is- is really just a -- if- if I can understand what you're saying, more- more of the fact that you're working specifically for a -- you know, you're building an app for a device that somebody holds in their hand, right? And so -- as opposed to something on a screen with a-

Andrew: 12:38

Right.

Dan: 12:38

-mouse or another pointer device.

Andrew: 12:40

Right.

Dan: 12:41

So, yeah. That seems like probably- probably good advice. Probably easy to forget when you're- when you're in the weeds, you know? Kinda been developing for a long time on a- on a thing, and just looking at your simulator on your computer. I certainly, like -- just even on websites have that same thing, right- right? I forget -- I look at it, you know, I see what it looks like on the iPhone, you know, a simulator or the -- that- that in dev tools even, you know? Which is even another further step removed from the actual thing, right? But it's always good to take a pass, you know? See what it feels like, swiping things or- or just scrolling, like, outlook scrolling on the -- on your ... you know, for an iPhone, at least, it has the -- what you call the scroll that keeps going when you- when you flick it? I can't remember what it's called. But there's- there's a name for it. But like on an iPhone, when you scroll, you know, everyone who used to it, you scroll with your finger, and you kinda flick it, and it keeps going, right?

Bekah: 13:30

Mm-hmm.

Dan: 13:30

Which is what most people on computers, you know, are using -- don't have that, right? They're using a touchpad or a scroll bar, whatever, and it stops [chuckles], right? And that experience is a little bit different. You're gonna see some -- you're gonna see things. Especially if you have interaction going on, you know? It -- scroll interaction, things like that. It seems like a pretty important step to- to take. So --

Andrew: 13:52

That seems-

Dan: 13:53

That's --

Andrew: 13:53

-actually really interesting. The -- I don't -- I -- is -- there might be a specific name for it. I'm- I'm not thinking of it either, but, like, you know, continuous scrolling or maybe something like that. But yeah, that is -- it's interesting when developing and it -- there are certain things that each platform will natively do on its own. And ... in my experience, I try and create apps that are consistent. So, an iOS user, I want them to see exactly what an Android user sees. But you also have to be aware of -- well, what are platform specific things that say an i- iPhone user is going to expect when they're in their apps, right? Navigation is one-

Dan: 14:46

Absolutely.

Andrew: 14:46

-right? iPhones don't have hardware buttons for back navigation, that's, like, by default. They've got -- they usually have a little back arrow in the corner. But, yeah, to that scrolling ... it's interesting. On those types of scrollable things in apps, there's a really slick animation, I think, that just kinda is native to iOS, that when you get to -- it does that infinite scroll. And I just think it looks really smooth. And you get to the bottom of the list, and it kinda bounces there at the bottom. And I think it looks really good-

Dan: 15:22

Yeah.

Andrew: 15:22

-and that just doesn't happen natively on Android. And it's like --

Dan: 15:26

Hmm.

Andrew: 15:27

Hmm.

Dan: 15:28

Yeah. So I looked it up at the -- it- it's called momentum scrolling. And I think that includes that scroll past that exact behavior you're talking about. But it -- so it's -- cuz it is cool and I've- I've, like, looked at it and tried to recreate it a couple of times in- in JavaScript, whatever. But it- it does have -- momentum just going -- it's a great name for it. Cuz it's like -- it really does, you flick it, and- and it starts fast, and goes -- and it slows down, and stuff like that. Anyway. Momentum scrolling. [Laughs] That's- that's what it's called.

Bekah: 15:59

This has been a really long-

Dan: 15:59

It's cool.

Bekah: 16:00

-week. And in my mind, I was, like, I want that to be my nickname [laughs]. Like, that doesn't make any sense, but I like it [laughs].

Andrew: 16:09

I'd say by itself, momentum is a pretty cool nickname.

Dan: 16:13

Yeah.

Bekah: 16:14

Yeah.

Andrew: 16:14

The scrolling part is sort of weird to assign to a human.

Bekah: 16:17

Hmm, yeah [laughs]. I'm not sure where to go with that either. So, I wanna -- I have some minimal experience with React Native. And -- so one of the questions people ask me all the time is, "Well, what's the difference? Like, how -- what's the learning curve from React to React Native?" which I actually think that React Native is easier to learn. But I say that as somebody who learned React first. I dunno if you have any thoughts on that, Andrew. I just like, you know, "Here's a view. This is -- it's not a div. It's a- it's a view." That makes sense to me.

Andrew: 16:53

Yeah. I've gone the other way. I wouldn't say I've learned React, so to speak. I- I sort of vicariously have, by doing React Native. But, yeah. I went the other way. I started with React Native, and I've done some dabbling in React. [Silence] I think ... ye- right. The- the distinct differences I noticed, one, is like in the JSX. So, where you're using traditional HTML type tags, you just -- you don't use those in React Native. You use traditional native tags. I remember seeing, like, view ... scroll view, text input, like, very -- these very declarative names. I did a little bit of development in Xamarin in college, and that was a mobile framework that uses, like, XML type markup, and it had very similar naming structures. So, like, that- that stuff was super familiar to me. But, yeah. I find, like, it -- that's -- that kinda stuff just makes sense. [Silence] Yeah. I think, really, the other sort of -- it's more of a -- like a mental contextual shift between the two. Like, knowing that you're working on a mobile device. That it receives taps, it doesn't receive clicks. It receives, like, swipes and, you know, it's -- you gotta just be aware of the user experience is very different. I think of, like, our -- another member of VC, Luis, he coincidentally joined my team and -- at- at- at work. And he had never done React Native. And he ramped up so fast. He had React experience. And he was instantly making contributions. So I think, yeah. One- one skill set can really help you with the other.

Bekah: 18:56

Yeah. I- I -- for sure. And it's interesting because I heard somebody talking about React Native documentation once, where they said, initially, there was an assumption that everybody who was doing React Native was coming from React. And then, when they asked for feedback, they found that actually there were a lot of non-React developers that were coming in. So there were assumptions built into the documentation about where folks were at. And then they took that feedback, and updated things, and- and made it approachable for ... I would say, more of an entry-level learner to navigate through the documentation, which is always fascinating to me.

Andrew: 19:43

Yeah, I'm- I'm no superhero. So, like, I read that -- those documentation. Like, I read that still [chuckles] on a regular basis. But, you know, I'm not pouring over it like I did in the beginning. But I remember, I would frequently have to pop back over to, like, "Well, what's the React documentation?" Because that has, like, context that I need. I've found that definitely to be true. But yeah, it was -- it's interesting. I -- I'm coming from, like, when I was in school, they taught us AngularJS. Whatever the -- I think it's the framework that people don't like as much [Bekah and Dan chuckle]. The version of Angular. And it's like -- it's framework experience, that's what I had. But otherwise, it was just JavaScript, HTML, CSS, and some PHP. So, like, it really coming into, like, choosing a framework. It kinda was like, "Well, I know JavaScript, so I can- I can kinda figure this out."

Dan: 20:45

I love that mentality. That, you know, just being -- just, like, the- the confidence to, you know, be able to- be able to know you can, like, pick something else up, you know? Even if it's gonna take a minute. We were just talking about that with Roger, I think, [chuckles] on the last- on the last podcast recording. We ... yeah. We're talking about, like, learning and- and- and how that -- that's one of those things once you, like, get some job experience, you know? And you realize, like, everybody's kind of in the same boat. And, like, new big things are become a little less scary because even if it's just a big black box, you know, that you don't really know anything about, not -- like, once you've, figured out your way around one- one programming, you know, I know language, it paradigm, or whatever. So many of the things transfer, some of the concepts transfer, you know? Roger was saying -- they're like, "All you really need to know is, like, ifs and for loops, you know, or whatever, and you can pretty much get your way through any language." Sounds like that. Which I agree- which I agreed with, you know? In- in principle, it's -- they're all- they're all kinda doing a lot of the same stuff. So, it's cool.

Bekah: 21:48

I'm- I'm gonna shift the conversation just a little bit, because I know you said that you've been a developer for about three years. And that's where I've been too. So, I know for me, COVID impacted a l- a lot of my early job experience. And I'm just curious, how, if that impacted you as well. And I know, you know, early-career developers trying to find community and then suddenly being isolated creates extra challenges on top of things.

Andrew: 22:18

Yeah. So my- my story there is I- I had a job at a local company. And ... I mean, Wisconsin cost of living isn't very high. I mean, depending where you live. Where I live, it's not. Therefore, pay is not very high. So I took a local job. And, you know, compensation was ... meh. And -- but I was sticking around, and because it was my first job at the time, and I just worked with that company to get career growth, and- and then the pandemic started. I was at -- I've been doing it a year and a half, almost two years at that point. No. I don't know what -- time math is hard for me.

Bekah: 23:14

Yeah [chuckles].

Andrew: 23:14

That's why there are libraries for that. [Bekah and Dan chuckle] But ... I -- and, yeah. Then- then the pandemic started, and my company was immediately like, "Everybody go home. We're going virtual." And I- I- I left the office that day [chuckles] and I didn't look back. I didn't -- I was- I was stoked to come work from home. Because I am -- I'm legally blind. So, like, commuting, I just depend on somebody else to get me to work. That was inconvenient for my fiance, inconvenient for my wallet if I needed to, you know, get, like, a ride share or something. I mean, my work was six miles away. I -- maybe somebody can bike that every day if -- I'm just not for it. I'm- I'm realizing I'm giving a really [chuckles] long drawn out answer to this. Okay.

Bekah: 24:12

No, that was great.

Andrew: 24:13

So, yeah. So then, it -- and- and in -- to that same point, like, with my vision, it's- it's way easier for me to get comfortable at home. Like, the ergonomics of my setup, you know? I have -- my monitors are mounted. So, you know, I- I have 27 inch monitors. They're like a very modest size, even maybe on the large side. And I get them inches from my face. But because they're mounted, I can have my keyboard, like, you know, way farther back. So I get that nice, you know, 90 degree in my elbows, but I can still see. And like, I just can't do that in an office. I can't be comfortable. Yeah, so it was, like, really good for me. And -- but I- I quickly noticed, like, especially when you took away, like, the being at work water cooler type stuff, you know, spending time with coworkers, it's like, I- I don't like this company that much and I'm not -- I'm very alone. And so, I needed a new job. I started looking, and I was just not -- like, even with two years experience, right? I was- I was taking interviews and they wanted people with more experience than me or ... yeah. I- I just wasn't it. Whatever it was they were looking for, I wasn't it. And I thought, well, okay. So everybody tells me, I remember in school and just throughout my life, they're like, "Oh, it's about who you know, not what you know. And you should do networking." And- and I thought, "I am an introvert. So, no, thank you. I don't want to do that." And I was listening to a podcast — a- a tech podcast. I can't remember which one now. But actually, you were on it Bekah. And you had talked about Virtual Coffee and I was like, "Okay, that sounds different. That sounds like, you know, it's networking, right? But it's- it's not traditionally what I think of. And it's a community of people doing the same thing that I'm doing, and I need that." And I am so glad I listened to whatever that podcast was [laughs].

Bekah: 26:30

Yeah. Maybe the React Native podcast.

Andrew: 26:33

It's very possible. Yeah. And- and it's just -- it's struck me, and I'm like, "Okay. I'm gonna join this community." And I did that, and ... yeah. Ever since, like, I joined VC, I got this, like, sense of self-confidence that I really needed, I think, for finding a job outside of where I live and ... and- and a community of, like, other people working to better themselves, technically or even non-technically. It's the thing I love about this community, too, is -- it's not just about the work that we do. So that was -- Virtual Coffee, it was the launch platform that got me to the job that I got. It actually, like, i-in actual tangible terms, I got my job through a different avenue. But I think, sort of the confidence in myself that I gained the, "Oh, I- I had, like, access to people who could help me," you know? "How do I- how do I present myself at interviews? How do I get better at that? How do I answer X coding question?" And that all led me to, I think, finding success in finding a job and finding an equitable job, right? Like, so I was-

Bekah: 28:04

Mm.

Andrew: 28:04

-like, I -- like, I opened with, you know? I was -- I had a hard- I had limited options, locally, you know? Limited tech stacks, limited pay, limited benefits, and I was able to get a fair compensation by being able to look elsewhere and being confident enough to look elsewhere, and say, "I am worth this."

Bekah: 28:28

Thanks so much for sharing that. I ... really appreciate it. And I appreciate everything that you're doing at Virtual Coffee. And so, you know, we're happy to have you here no matter what, but especially, you're one of our monthly challenge team leads. And so, I- I feel like you're really -- you've really invested in the community and supporting other people to find that- that feeling of connectedness and community that seems pretty important to your journey. Do you wanna talk a little bit about what you do as monthly challenge co-team lead?

Andrew: 29:05

Yeah, for sure. For me- for me doing that, that is ... right, that is my opportunity to give back to Virtual Coffee. And in terms of, I got so much out of Virtual Coffee. And it feels like I can't give back to this community what it gave to me. And I think it's -- I feel -- I just feel compelled to- to, like, volunteer and- and help. Help others get what I got. Because my life, like, from before Virtual Coffee, from me sitting at my desk at that last job to where I am today ... oh, my gosh. I- I- I have grown so much and I'm so happy with where I've ended up. In a lot of, you know, there's a lot of influences in how that happened, but I recognize the part that- that Virtual Coffee played in that. And so, me doing the monthly challenges is giving back to that. And so, yeah. At -- for- for Virtual Coffee, we'd, like -- I mean, obviously, you two know this [chuckles]. But w-we -- so, we do a monthly challenge and that will consist of ... we have 12-ish? Or I think a little bit more, like, maybe 13 topics that we will cover throughout the year, and assign them to a month. And that's what we'll focus on. And folks in the community are free to participate in those challenges as a way to, you know, expand their own skill set or to -- as their own opportunity for growth. So, for this upcoming month, for April, we are doing -- we are focusing on jobs — on the job search and job preparation. And so, like, what- what I do for that and what that will look like, I guess, is it -- each challenge looks a little bit different, but there are some, like, commonalities in -- so, we- we like to try and engage with the community throughout the challenge, and provide resources, and, basically, support for them to ... to- to grow. And ... so I- I coordinate and help, like, get the documentation and stuff that we need to set up in order to make that magic happen [chuckles]. I, you know, I work with people who want to be involved. Like, "Hey, do you wanna run, like, meetings associated with this challenge? Or do you want to try and hype people up about this challenge? Or do you wanna help me write documentation about this challenge?" So I try and rally around that kinda stuff. Yeah, I don't do that alone. Yeah. As- as you alluded to, Bekah, I do that with, like, my co-lead on that is Aurelie. And that is so wonderful that we co-lead that together because, you know, it's a volunteer position, right? It's we do what we can to give back, but we also do have jobs and families. And so sometimes, we can't do as much as we'd like to, and it's nice to have somebody else there to help balance that.

Bekah: 32:42

I keep- I keep hitting the mute and unmute button, like, multiple times. I don't know what's going on. [Chuckles] Extra clicky today. Sorry. Yes! That is a great overview of what our monthly challenges are. And they've been a lot of fun, I think, working through them. And like you said, we've had ... I think at least 13, and we're kind of iterating on that the second year around, trying to figure out how things work. And one of the great things I love to see is how many people are helping each other through that process, you know? Or continuing. We had month of pairing a couple of months ago, and somebody messaged me recently, and said, "I- I really loved being able to pair with other people and I wanna keep that going." And those are the kind of stories that really ... I didn't -- make my heart feel happy. I'm not sure [chuckles] how else to put it. Because there's this- this love of the community that develops through these things. And, you know, for us, we haven't made a competition out of it. Although we have -- we've had leaderboards and stuff, but it's not like, "Oh, it's a race to the top of the leaderboard." It's just cool to be able to see what everybody's doing and how they're doing it. And I'm- I'm really excited as we're going into this second year of monthly challenges, with this team of people, to see all of the connections that are continually made and how we can keep supporting each other.

Andrew: 34:13

It's really hard to say. Like, all I want to say about it I kept getting, like, lost in my own thoughts. But, yes. So some of the challenges that like -- so we did a- a writing challenge in November, where we- we supported each other members in, like, in- in writing blog posts or putting out content, and right there was, like, a leaderboard individually. You could see who put in how many words. But that wasn't the challenge. The challenge was to -- like, the number of challenge was we had a goal to hit. How many -- c-can we hit this many words? I think, was it a hundred thousand?

Bekah: 34:54

I think it ended up being over that, right? Did we hit the one 20, Dan? Do you remember?

Dan: 35:02

Yeah ... [Bekah chuckles] I just looked at it. I'm trying to remember. I- I, like, literally looked at it yesterday cuz I was- I was doing this. One second. I can look it up really quick. But --

Bekah: 35:07

Yeah. Our challenge was like 50,000 and we blew it out of the water.

Dan: 35:09

Yeah, we blast- yeah, we blast the best that in like a week, I think.

Andrew: 35:13

Yeah. It was --

Dan: 35:14

I see. Well, we got to 125 -- over 125,000. So --

Bekah: 35:18

Woop woop!

Dan: 35:19

Yeah.

Andrew: 35:19

Absolutely crazy.

Dan: 35:20

It was pretty dope.

Andrew: 35:21

And we had individual contributors there, right? Who they wrote a lot of words and it was amazing. And -- but we also succeeded together in crushing that goal. And I think on another individual basis, I think people succeeded in just writing something for the first time.

Bekah: 35:40

Mm-hmm.

Andrew: 35:41

As- as someone who runs the challenge, I don't -- I've- I've tried to balance me participating and running it. And I just can't- I can't do well at both. But that's -- I do love supporting that and so -- right. Giving somebody an avenue to do something for the first time, to write a blog post for the first time. You see a lot of developers do that. And if you want to do it, it can be super intimidating. Being on a podcast can be super intimidating [chuckles]. And so when you see other people doing it and you have that support, you're able to- to do that kind of stuff. And -- but I wanted to highlight too, like, one of the challenges -- one of the monthly challenges we did that I really liked, I think it was -- we did it for December. And I- I can't remember what we called it. But it was about-

Bekah: 36:33

Yes.

Andrew: 36:34

-it was about doing, like, your own ... what- what's your passion outside of your job? What's your passion outside of the technical skill set you have that brought you to Virtual Coffee? Let's talk about that. Let's celebrate that. There was really cool stuff. In- in music, we had people sharing their own musical talents. I think that was Jessica, who shared some cool videos in that. We saw tons of yarn work, a lot of knitters-

Bekah: 37:05

Yes!

Andrew: 37:06

-in VC.

Bekah: 37:07

And new knitters too! Some people just-

Andrew: 37:09

Yeah.

Bekah: 37:09

-just took it up.

Andrew: 37:10

Right.

Bekah: 37:10

It was the creative community challenge.

Andrew: 37:12

Yes. So, right, then. So even in that, like, people were inspiring other people to pick up new things. And I think I love that about VC is getting to share that kind of stuff too. I get to talk about programming all day at work.

Bekah: 37:30

Mm-hmm.

Andrew: 37:30

Sometimes, I just wanna talk to people about the things that I like to do. Like, for creative community, I think I built a 3D puzzle. And I had a lot of fun, and it was very zen, and not stressful at all.

Bekah: 37:44

Yeah, I think that's so important. And I'm glad that you brought that one up. Because it- it's something that more and more I'm finding that I- I need to take a break from coding things. Because it's just constant coding or community. And I love it. But I do find that my brain is sometimes just exhausted and anxious because I'm overwhelmed with all of these things that I'm doing and trying to learn. And you're never gonna learn it all [chuckles]. You're never going to be an expert at every single thing. And I think that really, for me, it's about, like, okay. I -- I've learned how to do these things, but I need to make space for- for other things that don't feel productive, that help me to learn how to relax, which I- I hear it's a thing that some people do. [Laughs] I'm still trying to figure that one out.

Dan: 38:38

What?

Bekah: 38:39

[Laughs] And- and -- so I think it is initially Kirk's idea that monthly challenges should have four quarters and one quarter -- one month per quarter should be devoted to non-tech things. And we've even been, like, doing more non-technical topics in Virtual Coffee, just to say like, "Hey." That is okay. One- one time, we talked about, like, cleaning products for almost the entire time. I'm not good at cleaning and I don't like it, but I think I'm fascinated that there are all these tools out there that I don't know exist because I avoid knowing anything about it [chuckles], but it was really a great conversation. Like, "Oh, okay. Now- now I know this adult thing [laughs]."

Andrew: 39:24

Yeah. We are the -- in Virtual Coffee, and in any community, you form, I think, we're all- we're all diverse people with diverse interests. In- in the case of Virtual Coffee, we're brought together by one common interest.

Bekah: 39:39

Mm-hmm.

Andrew: 39:40

But we get to learn from each other about all this other stuff. And I think that's one of my favorite things about VC.

Bekah: 39:51

Same. Same. And I -- so I've been doing a lot of research on communities, and community building, and there's different categories that communities are often grouped into. And I kind of love that. I don't feel like we really fit into one category. Yes, we are here because we're all interested in tech. But if you look at the conversations among people and the connections that are created, most of the deep connections are not because we're here for tech. It's because we relate to each other on a different level. And that comes with, you know, like bringing who we are and our interests outside of tech into the conversation. Because that- that, to some extent, allows for more vulnerability and openness to happen. And I- I just love how great that is and how -- it's something that- that we work hard to kinda preserve as part of our community.

Andrew: 40:49

Yeah, very much. I- I keep thinking of, like, all these instances of my interactions with other community members. So I keep name-dropping them. And if that ends up being an issue, we can just throw like a clucking chicken sound or something all over these names [unintelligible].

Bekah: 41:06

[Laughs] Name-drop them all.

Andrew: 41:08

But Kirk and I will have Zoom calls sometimes. Where, like, sometimes we talk about programming topics, but oftentimes I find with him, we'll just like wax philosophical for an hour.

Bekah: 41:22

Mm-hmm.

Andrew: 41:22

And then, it was like, "Where did the time go?" Like, we came on this call to, you know, just chit-chat. And that's always sort of where we end up. And -- but I love that. Like, that's why I keep coming back, is to talk about philosophy with Kirk.

Bekah: 41:40

Kirk is great. I -- and so, this -- well, once this episode airs, this will have been a- a couple of weeks. But we -- this week we won Most Welcoming Developer Community. I think that's it. Is that what it is? Cuz I keep saying that to people in -- on live [laughs] things. Something- something about welcoming. In my mind, we are definitely the most welcoming developer community. I think we won the award for welcoming developer community. So that would make us the most, right? By default? Because we won?

Dan: 42:12

No, I think the word- the words called the most welcoming developer community.

Bekah: 42:15

Then I'm right. Okay.

Dan: 42:15

Yeah.

Bekah: 42:16

Excellent.

Andrew: 42:18

That --

Bekah: 42:18

I dunno where it's going with the awards. I was just gonna drop that. And we won it [laughs].

Andrew: 42:23

Well-earned. Well-deserved. I -- when I first attended a VC meeting, I very much felt that it ... like, it felt like I belonged. And when I got into the Slack and I started, like, messaging people, like, there were -- there was a subset of people who've made me feel like I belonged and those names will, I think, will always stick out to me. And, like, these were the people who when I joined VC, they were very active, they were very present, and they made me feel a part of ... I think very much about our friend, Mike, was one of those people.

Bekah: 43:05

Yeah. Yeah. So much- so much of that welcoming spirit. And it- and it -- that is what makes a community special, and the ability to, you know, have those ... quiet conversations or, you know, there -- even just -- there are tiny things that I think are -- that are hard to put into words that, you know, somebody might remember. So, I got a package in the mail for Christmas. No name on it, and it was a box of my favorite tea. I don't know. I -- where did this come from? So I ask Kirk. And Kirk- Kirk knew who sent it. It was somebody from Virtual Coffee. And it -- just tiny things like that. I- I mean is -- well, sending a package, I feel like is a big thing because that requires a lot of enger- energy. But the idea that somebody remembered what my favorite tea was, was really special. And there are like small moments like that, that happen all the time with people. Or someone will remember something that you've said a long time ago and- and say something to you about it. And it just makes you feel like, "Yes, these are- these are my friends." And when people are like, 'My online friends,' I'm like, "No, these are my friends," you know? And so I- I, for sure, get what you're- you're saying there, Andrew.

Andrew: 44:32

I think of, like, one of my big passions is running. And we have a channel in- in our Slack, that's health and fitness. And so, I get to post about that running there sometimes. And it's a opportunity for me to share that. Like, the friends I have, who live around me, they- they don't care, like, about my running. I don't think they -- they're not like, "Oh, look at this runner over here." Look, they [chuckles] don't making fun of me for doing it or something, but they just don't care. And that's fine. But there are people at VC who I can share that with, and they care. And it's like, it means so much to me like running does, as- as a hobby and a passion, and to have other people, like, get invested to and care. It's ... priceless.

Bekah: 45:32

Yeah. We even, you know, you ran a race recently, right? And I remember thinking like, "Oh, I know that he's running a race. I need to go check, and see if he posted about it, and ask him." And, like, that- that's it. I'm not a huge runner. I've run a couple of 5Ks, but I'm invested in knowing how you did, because you're my friend. Like [laughs] --

Andrew: 45:50

Yeah. I- I see that, like ... I see that with you, with weightlifting that you do, like, you'll -- I've seen, like, videos of you doing squats, and I'm like, "She can definitely squat more than I can." But I'm [Bekah laughs] -- because, you know, I'm not- I'm not much of a weightlifter, but it's the exact same thing, right? Where I- I look at that and I'm like, "I- I am here for this. I'm here for this success. Your success makes it feel like my success. Let's be successful together."

Bekah: 46:21

That- that's such a great way to describe it. I feel like maybe that's the episode title. Let's be successful together, right? It's just all about lifting each other up. And when times are hard, especially in the last couple of years, being able to do that is- is ... I don't know. Just, like, sometimes key to keeping that momentum. I'm going back to my nickname.

Andrew: 46:41

The- the -- one thing I did- I did wanna talk about, kind of related to a lot of the stuff we've said is, like, one thing I've learned in VC is I've learned -- I don't think I've ever tried to put this into words. So let me give this-

Bekah: 47:03

Yeah. It's fine.

Andrew: 47:03

-a shot. Like, I ... I'm learning how to be myself, and be respectful to myself, and allow myself space to be a ce- a certain way, I guess. I- I see that, like, I get -- I am my own worst critic. I am so hard on myself, you know? I- I make one mistake, and all of a sudden I'm not good enough. And, you know, a lot of -- some of this plays into like imposter syndrome type deal. Like, I -- my favorite analogy for this — and I do feel like this sometimes — is that I am two children in a trench coat who snuck into the movies and I am gonna get caught one of these days. I literally was in a work meeting a couple of months ago. And I remember I was talking, there was our CIO was in the meeting, and like, some other PI up people. And for some reason I had the floor, and everybody was listening to me, and I just like froze, right in the middle of talking. And I thought, "What am I doing here?" Like, "I am too much of a child to- to be doing this." [Laughs] But I think other people in VC who experienced this and have, you know, some success some days at overcoming it have taught me how to- to deal with that, and how to be okay with that. And one thing, I guess in- in sort of this similar vein that I carry with me a lot and I've carried into work is, as we talk about in our VC meetings, we use the raise hand-

Bekah: 48:58

Function?

Andrew: 48:59

-reaction on Zoom. Yeah. To -- so that people can have space to say what they wanna say or share, because it can be really hard to- to just find space in a conversation that is a reality in, like, the real world. It can be very difficult. People have different communication styles. And some people, they're, like, "If you wanna say something, well, you just interrupt me." You know, that's not me. And- and I -- I'm very much a listener. So, if I'm around a person who talks a lot, they will -- I'll just sit quietly. And if they don't ever give me space to say something, I don't say something. There is no you can literally raise your hand in real life. I'm not gonna do that [chuckles]. But in Zoom, there's that raise hand functionality which allows me to find space. And I know I've talked a lot on this podcast, so it sounds contradictory to me saying that [chuckles]. I do that, but I feel like this is somehow a unique case. But I think, that is one of those little things. And- and maybe it wasn't little when it was thought of, and maybe it's not -- it isn't little, I don't know. But it seems like a small decision that was made, right? It's -- all you do is you press the button, right? But it is so big to me. And I carried that to- to my work when we have work meetings, and we've had like retros, and I'm like, "Hey, there is not space for some of our quieter members of our team-

Bekah: 50:26

Mm-hmm.

Andrew: 50:27

-be themselves and to share their thoughts. And we need their thoughts." So, you know, we use that at work now too. And that's a mind dump of like a sort of being myself type thing that I've learned from VC.

Bekah: 50:43

Oh, I love that. I -- and it is. That is those tiny things that make a big difference, especially if somebody is an introvert, or is neurodiverse, or it's just not really sure of what to expect within the- the way that things are happening. And so, having those things -- I know that at work we use Google Meet, and there's not a hand raise function [chuckles]. And- and I realized how much I love the hand raise function now that we've been using it. So -- actually, it was Infinite Red, I think, that introduced us to the hand raise function. Because one of their founders wrote a blog post about it. But i-it's finding those things like that, and then bringing them to the community and integrating them in to make everyone feel welcome, that- that does [chuckles] allow for everyone to feel welcome. Well, Andrew, I appreciate you being here with us today. We're just about out of time. Are there any last things that you'd like to share with our audience or ... any words of wisdom?

Andrew: 51:56

I think I've said a lot. But I guess the- the- the closing thought to tie all the stuff I've said together is I just wanna emphasize how much this community is valuable. And I, you know, to those listening, you know, if you're members of VC or potential members of VC, you know, there is more here than an opportunity out of job, or an opportunity at growing your technical skills. Those things are here, but there's an opportunity to be yourself. There's an opportunity to be around people who are like you. And I think just don't be afraid to- to join in all the parts that our community has to offer and- and, you know, share yourself if you get comfortable with that. It's worth it.

Dan: 52:57

I think that's awesome. Thank you, Andrew, so much for coming on. I really appreciate it.

Andrew: 53:03

Thank you for having me.

Bekah: 53:05

Bye.

Dan: 53:10

Thank you for listening to this episode of the Virtual Coffee Podcast. This episode was produced by Dan Ott and Bekah Hawrot Weigel. If you have questions or comments, you can hit us up on Twitter at VirtualCoffeeIO, or email us at podcast@virtualcoffee.io. You can find the show notes, sign up for the newsletter, check out any of our other resources on our website, virtualcoffee.io. If you're interested in sponsoring Virtual Coffee, you can find out more information on our website at virtualcoffee.io/sponsorship. Please subscribe to our podcast, and be sure to leave us a review. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next week!

The Virtual Coffee Podcast is produced by Dan Ott and Bekah Hawrot Weigel and edited by Dan Ott.