'Big M' versus 'Little m' Mentorship

Show Notes:

Sponsor Virtual Coffee!

Your support is incredibly valuable to us. Direct financial support will help us to continue serving the Virtual Coffee community.

Please visit our sponsorship page on GitHub for more information - you can even sponsor an episode of the podcast!

Virtual Coffee:

• Virtual Coffee: virtualcoffee.io
• Podcast Contact: podcast@virtualcoffee.io
• Bekah: dev.to/bekahhw, Twitter: https://twitter.com/bekahhw, Instagram: bekahhw
• Dan: dtott.com, Twitter: @danieltott

Transcript:

Bekah: 00:05

Hello, and welcome to Season 10, Episode 3 of the Virtual Coffee Podcast. Virtual Coffee is an intimate community of people at all stages of their tech journey, and we are here on this podcast to share insights, experiences, and lessons that we've learned along the way. I'm Bekah, and I'm here today with my co host, Dan.

Dan: 00:25

Thanks, Bekah. This season, we're diving deep into our back pocket topics from our Tuesday Virtual Coffees. Today's topic is Big M versus Little M Mentorship. We are grateful to be sponsored by Level Up Financial Planning. Helps you take your financial confidence to the next level. It's real financial planning to help you reach your goals and gain clarity on what actions you need to take now to maximize your tech career. Level Up even has a podcast where you can hear about some of the strategies he uses with his clients. Check out levelupfinancialplanning. com and you can get that link in our show notes.

Bekah: 00:58

So, grab your favorite drink, settle in, and let's get started with today's Virtual Coffee podcast. Bekah. We hope you enjoy this episode.

Dan: 01:13

Yo, what up, Beck? How's it going?

Bekah: 01:15

Hey, it's going well. How's it going with you?

Dan: 01:18

I'm doing all right. I am trying to get more caffeinated today. It's been kind of a struggle this morning. So what are

Bekah: 01:25

Friday mornings. Am I right?

Dan: 01:28

Indeed, uh, what are we talking about today?

Bekah: 01:31

Today we are talking about big M mentorship versus little m mentorship I heard them mention it on a podcast. Um, I don't know a couple weeks ago and I thought oh, that's really interesting I had this conversation at react miami this year with a couple of folks Talking about what is mentorship and we had like this argument over can you? You Mentor as a community versus one-on-one mentorship and which mentorship is better. And so I've been thinking about it for the last couple months and I thought it would be great to chat about it.

Dan: 02:04

Yeah, I think I think it's a cool topic. It's definitely been an interesting concept I guess our title is Big M versus Little M. So what do we specifically mean by that? What is Big M mentorship?

Bekah: 02:18

So I, I would say that's like, we're looking at it as kind of the proper noun of what we traditionally think of mentorship, which is like one-on-one mentorship. We schedule a day and a time and we might meet regularly. And it's a relationship that you probably have with one person in a mentor role. Versus little m mentorship is the things that you learn from the people who are around you And so we've talked a lot about this at Virtual Coffee and why we think it's so important to have an intimate community Because those moments of mentorship can happen Doesn't have to be an official thing, but when you get to know each other well in an intimate community Then you start to understand. What are these? What is this person's needs? What are their career goals because you know them as a person and so little m mentorship might be that type of mentorship But um on the other podcast I heard them talk about it in terms of like, what do you learn? were talking about specifically going back to the office and how you learn from hearing other people talk to each other, maybe other engineers talking in a meeting, that you normally wouldn't go to, or you stay at work late and you see what other people are working on and kind of get to understand what the office culture is for people who are working late. Um, and it's so, it's, it's, um. It's kind of like all of those things that you pick up but not in an official capacity that help you to learn and make progress and grow. Bekah.

Dan: 03:59

find, like, how do you find a mentor? Like we've all, we've, I think a lot of us have gone through that, asked ourselves that, asked other people that, you know, and there's obviously not like a good answer, I don't think. Um, but the, the fact is, yeah, like you said, we, and I agree with you. You can gain mentorship or, or provide mentorship in lots of ways that don't have to be formalized. Like I, you know, the, and I, and I think I find that very valuable. I think the, I think having a long term, you know, mentor can be really, really great. Um, but it's not a, thing that a lot of people have access to, right? Um, and I think providing mentorship also can be very, you know, valuable. Like that mentor mentee relationship is valuable for both sides, I think, in the, in the best form that it exists. Um, and, um, excuse me. And I do think I agree with you. I totally agree with you that like communities can provide that and, you know, you can find that in the workplace. You can do it in lots of different and smaller ways. Um, and if you think about it, like the way that we're talking about it. Um, it kind of, I don't know, it kind of all ties back to a lot of the stuff we talk about over the years, um, where having a sense of intimacy and like going into something with knowledge of the other person and keeping that in mind when you're, when you're talking to them, when you're helping them, or when you're asking for questions, asking for help, uh, Can, can be very, very valuable. Um, and it removes like thinking about it that way removes some of the trappings of the mentor thing, right? Like somebody might roll their eyes if you're like, I'm mentored somebody today. You know what I mean? Uh, if it isn't like formalized. I still think that you probably did, you know, if you, you know, it's like, it's not like answering questions on stack overflow, obviously, like that's good and helpful, you know, um, like helping somebody with, you know, we talked about Ray deck, um, Oh shoot. Was that last week? Was that the, like, which episode was that?

Bekah: 06:09

We've talked about Ray Deck a

Dan: 06:10

Uh,

Bekah: 06:11

the podcast, so we can,

Dan: 06:12

I mean, I can, I can cut

Bekah: 06:13

Virtual Coffee. If you don't know Ray, you're missing out.

Dan: 06:16

Yeah. I know I'm getting my episodes confused, but yeah. Ray deck is a longtime member of Virtual Coffee and a great guy. And, and. I think he's one of those people that, like, comes at helping people with that, like, frame of reference without ever saying it, like, you know, or without, um, asking for anything in return, or without, you know, doing anything like that, but anytime you ask Ray for help, um, the, the I feel like if you talk to anybody that has, you'll, you'll, you'll hear lots of things like, uh, like I get like warm feelings when I ask him for help, you know what I mean? And it's not like, um, I don't know, is he, it's because he, it's because he comes at it with a, a sense of like the whole person that's asking the question and helps you lots of times answer the question for yourself, right? he doesn't just answer a question. He never does. Um, I mean, I suppose he would if I was like, hey, what's, you know, four times seven or something, but like, you know, uh, but like in, in general, you know, with, with any, any kind of harder question, he will take that. He'll, he'll take the understanding of you as a person into account and then, um, and do that. And it's not like I've, I've, I've, I've. It's not like I'm like, Oh, Ray is my mentor. You know what I mean? Cause it, cause you know, it's not, there's nothing formalized. There's no, you know, schedule or anything like that. Um, but I know that he's a person that I can come to you for that sort of, um, I don't know, that sort of experience.

Bekah: 07:44

Yeah, I almost feel like that's kind of like, uh, in the middle ground of big M versus little M mentorship in the way that I think about it. And like, there's definitely one person I can think of off the top of my head that, if I need career advice, or if I'm struggling with a problem at work, I don't work with him, but I know, like, that's the person that I would ask that to. And we don't have an established relationship, like mentor mentee, But I still see him kind of, like, in that role, because he's someone I trust, he's further along in his career, has a lot of experience, actually has a similar family life than to my own, so, like, he understands the complexities of the industry and also, you know, balancing that, and that's important to me. And so I'll go to him. Um, but it's not like, Hey, we meet every, um, Monday or whatever. And I think that, you know, having big M mentorship can be really good. It can also be really bad. It's, it's limited. And this is one of my reasons why I am very pro small M mentorship. Because you can find yourself in a one on one mentorship with someone who is not a good mentor. Or someone that maybe is not necessarily, uh, intentionally leading you down the wrong path, but they have their limited perspective, and that's the perspective that you get from that person. And one of the things that I've actually seen with folks who are coming into tech now, who are in these big M mentorship with people who came into tech, let's say, like, five years ago or eight years ago, things were a lot easier to come into tech. That's when I came in five years ago. Um, It was much easier for me to graduate bootcamp and get into tech than it is now. But if those people are mentoring with the perspective that they had when they came into tech five years ago, they're offering advice that's outdated and not super helpful to people who are coming in now. Um, so it has to be someone that really has a, an understanding of the industry to be able to make that impact or to say like, This might be a really good thing for you to learn to set yourself apart. And so, you know, if you land with the wrong mentor, or sometimes it's just not a right fit. You know, I've been in situations where like, this person is my friend and this is great, they offered to mentor me. But then I found like, Actually, like, my personality plays a big role. Like, I like to be pushed. Like, I want people to be like, what are you doing, you're wasting your time, stop it. Like, stop whining about this thing and get your act together, you know? And I, for whatever reason, I have to find myself, like, with very nice people who are like, it's okay, take your time, give yourself grace, like, which is fine. Like, that's good for some people, but I need people to,

Dan: 10:21

Yeah.

Bekah: 10:22

don't know, be, be, I don't, Well, and this is, we probably shouldn't go here, but there's a difference between coaching and mentoring as well. And so,

Dan: 10:29

Oh, absolutely.

Bekah: 10:31

that's where things start to change, but anyway. So, finding the right mentor can be really important to making that a meaningful relationship where you progress, too.

Dan: 10:42

Yeah. No, it, it reminds me of, um, uh, finding a therapist, honestly. Like I've, I've had a couple of situations where I, I mean, I really liked the therapist. I, you know, and I think we would be friends or whatever, you know, if like, but the, the. It just, you know, it just like wasn't working well and I think that's fine. It's nothing anybody did. You know what I mean? Um, so with that sort of thing, it's yeah, personality plays a big role in it as well. Um, you mentioned coaching and I think that's an important distinction too. And I, I do believe like some people that are wishing they had a mentor, maybe which, Really actually like need a coach. Right. And so I think the difference here was one of the differences is a coach is like somebody who, um, has, is helping you towards one specific goal and that's their job. Right. Like, uh, And I feel like a mentor is not necessarily that, you know, I mean, like they can help with things, but they, I don't know if I'm, I don't know if I'm describing that right, but like a mentor is a little more like holistic and a little more like global in their, in their, you know, in their goals, I suppose, or your goal, like the partnership goal, right? Whereas a coach, you're like, you know, okay, I need like a weightlifting coach. Okay. I'm going to You know, this is the thing that they're going to do. Right. And like, they might like be interested in you as a person besides that, but you know, it's, that's their like focus and that's fine. Like that's really good for some, you know, in some situations, um, whereas a mentor maybe is not necessarily just like, I need a new job. Let me go find a mentor so I can get a new job. You know what I mean? That, you know, might be like career coaching sort of situation might be a better fit. So

Bekah: 12:28

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's interesting too, um, I know that there are some people that go to peer mentor groups, and I've never been to a peer mentor group, but I also feel like maybe that kind of falls in the middle of these two, um, types of mentorship as well, where you're able to engage with other people, and that kind of aligns with our, our, our vision at, um, Virtual Coffee of that everybody has an opportunity to mentor and that horizontal mentorship is a huge part of the things that we're doing at Virtual Coffee. Um, Um,

Dan: 13:11

we're coming up on Hacktoberfest and that's one of our big ones where we do actually define it, right. Is we collect people that are willing to do some sort of mentoring for open source. Right. And so lots of times the people that are doing that aren't, you know, they're not like 30 year professionals. They're not, you know, you know what I mean? They're not, um, But they're just people that have at least a little bit of experience and are willing to share that and help the other person kind of get through. Um, and so we do like to find that, but it's just for one month, right? Um, and, but it's, I think it's a great opportunity for people to kind of like get it, you know. Get their, get their, um, I'm like struggling for a metaphor here. Get their feet wet. Yeah, that's a good one. Get their boots on the ground, get their feet wet, something like that. Uh, where, uh, in this, in this thing, it's a practice, right? Cause, uh, mentoring is, um, on both sides, uh, being a mentor, being a mentee. Um, it's, it's kind of like a skill that you learn as well. So. I like providing some of those, uh, kinds of experiences where we actually do define it, but it's not like, okay, you're signing up with this mentor for, you know, a year or something that, you know, it's not like a big life decision. Um, that's kind of, but you know, so, but it's still like good and important. I don't know.

Bekah: 14:30

Yeah. And that's, I mean, one of the things that we talk about during Hacktoberfest, too. So, we try and get people who will mentor one on one. And one of the big questions I always get asked is, like, okay, well, what does it look like? Like, well, I can't define what mentorship looks like for you and your mentee, because I think that's a conversation that needs to happen. Well, I guess establishing those expectations are so important. And I think in most big M mentorship roles, that's really important that the mentee understands, like, it's not the mentor's job to do a bunch of homework and present to you this thing and then you do it. Like you have to have an understanding of like, what are your own needs? What work have you put in? How can you help that mentor because it's not just I, you know, I've had conversations with folks where they're like, Oh, hey, do you want to mentor me? And then I get into the conversation and then they just like sit there and they're like waiting for me to do the thing Like I don't let's have a conversation. Like what do you need? what where do you feel lost or where are your strengths and your weaknesses and I think that it's as much as the mentee's responsibility, maybe even more than the mentor, to do that preparation to make it a meaningful relationship. And so that's why that conversation has to happen. And then we also have conversations with folks in the community like, Hey, would you be willing to just like generally answer questions during Hacktoberfest? And that's more of that small M mentorship because we know that people need mentorship in different ways, but knowing that there is someone out there that's willing to put in some, a little bit of extra time to make sure that they're fielding questions or they can connect them with the right people. I think that, you know, that's also a really valuable part of the community mentorship experience because You're not limited to one person. You get tons of different perspectives from the whole community and you kind of get, I think, a more well rounded viewpoint on things in general when you really kind of embrace and utilize that little mentorship.

Dan: 16:28

Yeah, I agree. And it's, uh, there's, there's a lot of situations like that, that I sweat, I think, especially in Virtual Coffee, but like in other communities too, you know, where we. We provide those spots and we ask people to kind of step up a little bit, you know, um, it reminds me of, you know, the trust capital and stuff too, right. The, that we talked about last week, it's the somebody who can do that. I don't know. There's just like a lot of ways, different ways to think about the same kinds of actions, you know? Um, but like being. Available to provide support, help and support. And it's not always support like tech support, you know, it, it can be a thing, like a person is just real nervous about submitting their first pull request, you know, and helping them get through just that first hurdle, uh, I think can be super valuable and. Again, not like you don't need a year long mentor, you know, like Big-M mentor to do that or, or, or to provide that support. So I think it's really cool.

Bekah: 17:38

Yeah, I saw this thing on, I think it was Instagram, on Sarah Blakely's Instagram a while back, and So, Sarah Blakely is the founder of Spanx, which is a women's shapewear line that's become an empire, right? I think she's a billionaire now. Um, but, one of the things that I thought was fun, She always, like, interacts with people who are fans of hers, And she met this woman, who I, I think it was an older woman, older than her, And the woman was like, you're one of my mentors, or you're on my board of mentors. And so the woman explained that, like, there are a handful of people who she really follows, like, what they're doing, the words of wisdom that they share, and she's got like four or five people. And then she uses their collective wisdom to apply to her life because she thinks that it will be useful. And I thought, like, that was a really interesting way to kind of see mentorship as well. It's not someone you have a one on one relationship, so I don't think that I would necessarily call it mentorship. But also, like, kind of those guiding forces can help you to identify, like, alright, what do, what am I looking for in a mentor? Like, what do I need from someone? And she's kind of created her own community of small m mentorship by looking at the things that those people are saying or doing. And I'm listening to a book by Adam Grant right now, and I really enjoy the things that he's written. Um, I don't, I can't remember what this one, I think it's called Give and Take. Um, and I'm just a little bit into it, but all this stuff really resonates with me, and I always find that, like, I learn something that I can apply to the things that I'm doing, or help me to understand myself better when I approach the next thing. And so I think, like, Those are also things that you can pass along to people like, hey, this is a really great resource. I think you would benefit from that. And actually, like, there's someone that I'm going to DM today because they were just talking about burnout and I'm like, ah, I think that this section would really resonate with them. So I'm going to send them a message on Twitter. Like, hey, have you read this book? Cause I think you would like it.

Dan: 19:44

I, uh, yeah, that's really interesting and, uh, and I agree, like, I don't, I don't know that I would consider that mentorship, but that, that sort of, I don't know, thought process or, you know, approach to communicating and things like that, I think is very valuable. Maybe think what, like who would be, Bekah, who would be on your, like, If you have four people on your board of, uh, little M, uh, you know, mentors, if we're going to use this besides me, besides, besides me, obviously,

Bekah: 20:13

I mean, are we choosing people that we know in real life

Dan: 20:17

uh, that's tough too. Yeah. Uh, I don't know. I just wanted to make

Bekah: 20:22

I'm not gonna choose real life people 'cause then I'll feel bad about leaving people out. But I think I would choose, um, I probably would choose Sarah Blakely. Um, I would probably choose Adam Grant. Um, then there's another, maybe Jonathan Haidt, I think. If he's the one that wrote The Anxious Generation, um, I don't know if that's a, definitely a website. Uh, it's just kind of like about youth today. I, a lot of his stuff has really been resonating with me, and then I just read two books by David Brooks, and I really appreciated like a different perspective of things and the importance of connection and the value. That we can bring to each other through that connection. Oh, this is so hard because now I like thinking of some of the like storytelling authors. Well,

Dan: 21:20

It's

Bekah: 21:21

to throw a storytelling person in there. That's my number five. I don't know. I can't narrow it down. I would have to like look at it, but that's probably it. They're all kind of like different perspectives on life, but like bring something really interesting that I hadn't really considered. So that would be it. And all of them also talk about career, career, family. And that, like, the complexities of that. Alright, so who are, put me on the spot, who are you're, you're

Dan: 21:48

I know. I mean, as soon as you started talking, I really regretted it. Cause I, this is the kind of question where my mind just goes totally empty. Um, obviously Yoda, you know,

Bekah: 21:57

Oh.

Dan: 21:57

I. P. Uh, um, Stephen King, honestly, has always been a person that I've like followed a lot of his stuff. Um, Eric Meyer, who I actually have, I kind of know, but like, he's, He was like a old school, if you haven't heard of Eric Murray, he's, he's just one of the like founding fathers of CSS and like the, that sort of, um, modern like HTML kind of design, you know? Um, and I have like, I have, I'm acquainted with him, you know, so it's a little bit of a cheat, but like still, now I'm just like trying to scroll through like Twitter, see who's like name is popping up for me. I'm really like, I'll think of some better answers and get back to you. But, um, this is definitely the, Oh, I see you're taking notes. So don't forget Stephen King there. Yeah. Um, sorry, Bekah was typing and I'm still just not used to, um, Google. Docs and like seeing other people type things at the same time,

Bekah: 22:58

I just need a link to these people in the show notes, so if

Dan: 23:01

yeah, yeah,

Bekah: 23:02

these people? We'll get you the rest of Dan's list. I just spelled Steven wrong and he corrected me.

Dan: 23:09

Um, Yeah, I feel like there's one other that I'm forgetting about and I, uh, yeah, I don't know. I definitely should have, uh, considered asking you this question before before I asked

Bekah: 23:23

It's a good question though, and I would love to know, like, if you're listening and you want to share, please let us know. You can hit us up on Twitter or in the comments of the podcast, um, wherever you're listening to your podcast. Or if you're on our site, let us know there, too.

Dan: 23:38

yeah.

Bekah: 23:39

Well, I think that's probably a good note to close on today. Um, it's great to talk about mentorship because I think that all forms are really important and finding the one that works for you is actually what is most important. But, uh, if you have any other ideas or if you have something you've read or listened to that you think would be great to this conversation, also hit us up with that too. Alright, well thanks for listening, catch you next week!

Dan: 24:03

All right. Thanks, Bekah. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Virtual Coffee Podcast. This episode was produced by Dan Ott and Bekah Hawrot Weigel, if you have questions or comments, you can hit us up on Twitter @VirtualCoffeeIO or email us at podcast@virtualcoffee.io. You can find the show notes, sign up for the newsletter, buy some VC merch, and check out all of our other resources on our website, virtualcoffee.io. If you're interested in sponsoring Virtual Coffee, you can find out more information on our website at virtualcoffee.io/sponsorship. Please subscribe to our podcast and be sure to leave us a review. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next week.

The Virtual Coffee Podcast is produced by Dan Ott and Bekah Hawrot Weigel and edited by Dan Ott.