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Bogdan Covrig - Navigating Tech Career Paths

Season 6, Episode 2 | July 28, 2022

In this episode, Dan and Bekah talk to Bogdan Covrig about finding the right career path within tech and searching for what gets you excited.

Bogdan Covrig

Bogdan is a Software Engineer in the Netherlands. He’s passionate about privacy, automation and infrastructure. He’s into Typescript, React and Node, currently building and working with CMS. He’s usually busy with movies, concerts or sitting in the park for no reason.

Show Notes:

This week Bekah and Dan sat down with Bogdan Covrig, a Software Engineer in the Netherlands who's into Typescript, React and Node, about navigating different learning and career paths in tech before landing a job that fulfills his interests to see the changes he's making and provides a dynamic work environment. He also drops his tips on the most important things you can do if you're starting your journey into tech.

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Transcript:

Bekah Hawrot Weigel:

Hello, and welcome to Season 6, Episode 2 of the Virtual Coffee podcast. I'm Bekah. And this is a podcast that features members of the Virtual Coffee community. Virtual Coffee is an intimate group of developers at all stages of their coding journey. And they're here, on this podcast, sharing their stories and what they've learned. And we are here to share it with you. Here with me today is my co-host, Dan.

Dan Ott:

Hello! How is it going, Bekah?

Bekah:

It is going fabulous.

Dan:

That's so much less satisfying to say than, 'Waddup, Bek.' [Bekah laughs] I think I'm just gonna start saying that in every episode [laughs].

Bekah:

Fine. It's fine. That's cool.

Dan:

Anyway, yes. Today we have another, you know, awesome, obviously, guest. Bogdan --

Bekah:

The theme- theme for-

Dan:

Yes.

Bekah:

-Season 6 is awesomeness.

Dan:

Yes. And really, for all seasons, honestly.

Bekah:

Every [humming].

Dan:

But yeah, we have Bogdan Covrig here. He is a software developer from The Netherlands, and he ... I don't know. Yeah, he- he -- it was really great to have him on. He- he just finished school, like last year, sometime, right? Or this year? Last year? I don't know. Recently. In ... The ... Nether- ... lands --

Bekah:

Time has not exist over the last two years. So --

Dan:

No. Yeah. Yeah. No, I have no idea. But he talks about that. He talks about experience in school, go through school, and- and then, you know, his experiences as developer, and it was really fun. Really- really good talking to him.

Bekah:

It's always interesting to think about the journeys that people take to get them to the roles that they're in. And so I think Bogdan is one of the first people, or one of the few people that we've talked to who's been an educator, as in like, in a university setting, teaching people about coding. And-

Dan:

Yeah.

Bekah:

-to hear what that was like and what he learned from that experience that brought him to where he is right now.

Dan:

Yeah, totally. I mean, I was very curious to hear about that. And I did some computer science in s- in-in school, and in college, and it was a long time ago. And ... I don't know, I was curious to see -- hear about -- I'm also just curious to hear about what it's like in a classroom right now as a developer, as, you know, in a- in a college classroom, as opposed to bootcamps, and things like that. And ... yeah. And- and also, I don't know. The idea of teaching is just like so beyond anything I've ever done, like, you know, teaching at semesters of worth of classes, you know? I -- although, I don't know. I was curious about it and so it was really nice to hear about it from- from- from Bogdan.

Bekah:

Yeah. And to hear the process that he went through as he was trying to figure out like what's next for him in his career path. And we start every episode of this podcast like we start every Virtual Coffee. We introduce ourselves with our name, where we're from, what we do, and a random check-in question. So, we hope you enjoy this episode. Today's random check-in question is, what is your favorite condiment? My name is Bekah. I'm a technical community builder, and my favorite condiment is hot sauce. Definitely. That goes on everything.

Dan:

That's a good one. Yeah. All right. Hi, I'm Dan. I do web development in Cleveland. I- I don't have a super favorite. I- I'd say -- so there's this taco place in ... near where I live, called ... what -- Bombas. And they -- so when you could -- they have this, like, sauce. And you can -- when you order like a taco box to go, you know, like this, like a family box or whatever, they'll give you just like a whole- like a whole thing of it. A whole like bottle of it.

Bekah:

Yes.

Dan:

And I -- when we do that, I- I use it for like the next two weeks and -- on the, like, everything. So I- I can't really describe it. I think -- it has garlic in it, certainly. I don't -- it maybe some sort of aioli maybe? I don't- I don't actually know, and I don't really wa-

Bekah:

Is it spicy? No, it's not spicy.

Dan:

No, it's not- it's not spicy.

Bekah:

Creamy?

Dan:

You kn- yeah, it's a little creamy, I guess. Although saying creamy makes it sound weird [chuckles]. I dunno [laughs]. But- but it's good. And I, like, I don't wanna know really. I like the mystery of it, you know what I mean? It's just like this magical thing that shows up, and then it goes away, and then a couple months later we'll order, you know, those tacos again, and it'll be back to my life. I don't wanna have the mys- like, maybe it's just some chunky thing that they buy off -- it probably is [chuckles] something that I could just buy at the grocery store, you know? But I don't wanna know. It was --

Bekah:

Is it like mayonnaise-y?

Dan:

I don't know. It's --

Bekah:

Does it need refrigerated?

Bogdan Covrig:

Meal [chuckles].

Dan:

I mean, I put it in the refrigerator. I don't -- I assume. I don't- I don't ... I don't know. Why would you have an open bottle of some sort of sauce that you didn't put in the refrigerator?

Bekah:

Hot sauce doesn't go in the refrigerator.

Dan:

It doesn't? We keep ours --

Bogdan:

Some do. I feel like some do, right?

Dan:

Yeah. I don't- I don't know. Well, like-

Bekah:

You need it to hide --

Dan:

-Tabasco. Do you put Tabasco in the --

Bekah:

No. I don't think it needs to be-

Bogdan:

I do [??].

Dan:

Really?

Bekah:

-there's a lot of vinegar in it and that doesn't need to be refrigerated.

Dan:

Huh. We had these refrigerator talks before. I- I don't know the rules. So I just assume everything goes in because it seems safer to me [Bogdan chuckles]-

Bekah:

Tomatoes do not go in the refrigerator. They still do not.

Dan:

-you know? Right. This is what I'm saying. I don't -- I- I know -- I- I don't have the knowledge to argue with you about it. But I just put things in the fridge because that always seems like the safer option, you know what I mean? To me.

Bogdan:

Do you- do you put your oil in the fridge?

Dan:

No!

Bekah:

No!

Bogdan:

Yeah. That would be weird.

Dan:

No, no. All right. Yeah, that- that'd be weird. I actually had a friend ... Emily's brother actually, like, got in the habit of keeping his cereal, like in the fridge. Because he- he said it- it kept it -- like, it would not go stale as- as fast, you know? It would stay fresh longer.

Bekah:

How long do you keep this cereal [chuckles]?

Dan:

I don't know. I mean, he's just like liv- living alone, you know? And like ... I don't know. But like, we went on vacation altogether at this little cottage with this tiny fridge, and the whole f-fridge was full of cereal [laughs]. We were like, "No, no. This is not like -- this is not a -- this is not -- we're putting this in the cabinet." That's where I draw the line. Cereal ... doesn't go in the fridge.

Bekah:

That's -- I'm glad [chuckles] you draw the line there.

Dan:

Oil? Yeah, yeah -- no. I- I knew -- I know enough not to put oil in the fridge. Other than that ... I'll put things in the fridge, and then sometimes Emily will say, "Hey, that doesn't go in the fridge, dummy." And I'm like, "Okay [chuckles]. Fair enough." But this sauce, I don't wanna know whether it does or not, you know what I mean? Cuz I don't wanna know anything about it. That's my point. So I'm just putting it in the fridge.

Bekah:

You don't wanna know about it. That's weird.

Dan:

Hey, it's a mystery. No, I like it. I like -- it tastes-

Bekah:

I don't like the dressing [??].

Dan:

-very good. I feel like if I learn about it, something will -- it'll become ... less good [laughs].

Bogdan:

Or you'll be- be disgusted by it.

Bekah:

Alright, Bogdan [laughs] --

Dan:

But, I mean, that is- that is a very serious -- that, I mean, that is an actual possibility too. I don't- I don't want that to- to happen either [laughs]. Alright, I'm done.

Bogdan:

Okay. Hello, everybody. I am Bogdan. I'm from Romania, but I am a software engineer in The Netherlands. I've been living here for almost five years, moved from a tiny city in Romania to a tiny [chuckles] city in The Netherlands. And I like it. And I don't wanna leave. And I think -- are we talking about sauces -- sauce or condiments?

Bekah:

Well, I considers some sauce as a condiment, so --

Bogdan:

Okay.

Dan:

Oh, oh, like, wait, wait. Pasta- pasta sauces are not condiment, right?

Bogdan:

No, no, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get it.

Bekah:

Yeah. Pasta sauce, it doesn't count --

Bogdan:

No, no, no, I get it. I was just -- yeah. Cuz one of the best thing that I discovered and ch- absolutely changed my life, my friends got me like this jar of Chipotle pepper or whatever. I don't know how it works. I don't know how -- i-i-it's just amazing. Cuz then I put it in absolutely [chuckles] everything. I mean, not everything.

Dan:

Nice.

Bogdan:

Ev- like everything that goes with like tomato sauce or tomatoes, I just-

Dan:

Yeah.

Bogdan:

-pour some of those and it's just amazing. Like the smokey, everything. So, yeah. But otherwise, it's got -- like, usually it's got -- like garlic goes into everything, and then --

Dan:

I mean, garlic's delicious. Yeah.

Bogdan:

Yeah. And smoked paprika also. Like, if there's something that needs to be sp- I don't know, smoked stuff, it's amazing [chuckles]. And garlic as well. So, yeah.

Dan:

I like it. I almost said- I almost said --

Bekah:

I think all those things in a sauce together would be great.

Dan:

Yeah.

Bogdan:

I think, yeah. But I have -- I- I mean, I have to agree, like, with Dan's friend, like living alone, like, it just -- there's -- there are no rules. I ... you know? [Bogdan and Dan Laugh] I do what I want. I put everything where I want. And also, I'm the only one that needs to know where it's placed. So, yeah. I don't put my --

Bekah:

So, do- do you put your Chipotle ... condiment in the refrigerator?

Bogdan:

I do. But I'm not sure if I have- have to? I don't think it's forbidden, right [laughs]? But I just -- I- I- I was just -- it keeps me sane. Cuz I had a ti- I had a tiny Tabasco bottles, but like, I feel like the vinegar goes up, and then I try to shake it, and it doesn't. And then it's all you -- vinegary, and I don't like it. So I keep it in the fridge, just to be sure.

Dan:

Mm-hmm.

Bekah:

That's interesting.

Bogdan:

But I dunno.

Bekah:

I should try that experiment.

Bogdan:

I dunno. But no, tomatoes don't go into fridge. Like, I'm -- it's just nuts. It's the way it is, my friends [laughs].

Bekah:

Yes. No, 100% agree with you.

Bogdan:

Yeah.

Bekah:

Well, thanks for being with us here today, Bogdan. And we like to start every podcast episode with your origin story. So, talk to us a little bit about how you got into tech.

Bogdan:

Okay. Thank you for having me. I just -- I- I mean, I want to start with, like, I think it's very unfair how clear Dan sound- sounds compared to the two of us [laughs], Bekah. Cuz do you -- do -- you don't post it like this. You don't sound that cool in the actual [laughs] talk, I see. Like, there's some mixing going on, right?

Dan:

What? Wait. Are you saying --

Bogdan:

You s- you sound very cool.

Dan:

Oh. No idea.

Bogdan:

And I don't. I- I don't know. But I'm looking at those things moving on the screen, and he -- yours are ... bigger [laughs].

Dan:

Well, okay. Well, I might just be talking louder or having way -- that might be too- too loud, actually. I wasn't really looking at it until just now. This is --

Bekah:

I think it looks different on different screens too. Like-

Dan:

That's probably true too.

Bekah:

-mine looks very-

Bogdan:

Ah.

Bekah:

-tiny, like, barely -- so- so, okay. If you're listening --

Dan:

Yeah, yours is probably, honestly, like [chuckles], I mean, and I try to do this, like I fix this up in editing later. I try to, right?

Bogdan:

Yeah.

Dan:

So, this is like sound engineering stuff that I've been learning on the fly since we were started working the podcast [chuckles]. So I don't, you know, I don't know a lot about it. But like, the -- trying to get those levels, you know, to where it's close to the edges is usually the best. So, Bekah is like, I -- yeah, like- like -- what I was saying is you're a little quiet, still, you know [chuckles]?

Bekah:

I'm quiet?

Dan:

A little bit. Not a lot.

Bekah:

I didn't turn up my sound. You didn't tell me to.

Dan:

Well, I didn't really notice before. And also, in -- so, for those -- I don't know if we're gonna cut this or not, but for people listening, we use Zencastr, and it doesn't show you these nice level outputs until you're recording. Which is-

Bogdan:

Yeah.

Dan:

-really obnoxious. It's hard to tell. So, I don't know. But, Bogdan, do you have -- is that the Wave- is that the Wave-1? Wave-3? [Unintelligible]?

Bogdan:

You are Wave-3.

Dan:

Wave-3?

Bogdan:

But no, it was a compliment. We don't have to go into it. It's also very --

Dan:

Oh, no. It's -- so, I mean, I- I just got- I just got the Wave-3, like, last week, and it's been like-

Bogdan:

It- it -- yeah. I have ... yeah. It's --

Dan:

-a day getting it set up. So I can send you some stuff [chuckles].

Bogdan:

It's ... no, it's Wave-3, right? It is.

Dan:

It looks like it.

Bogdan:

Yeah. It's Wave-3. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like it. It's nice.

Dan:

Yeah. I got- I got -- I like it too. I just got it ... yeah. Two weeks ago. Or a week and half ago. So ... I'll send you some stuff.

Bogdan:

It- it -- yeah. But i- is your room, like, prepared for this? Cuz you-

Dan:

No.

Bogdan:

-sound insanely good.

Dan:

Nope. It's just --

Bogdan:

Like, there's no way mine sounds like this.

Dan:

Yours sounds pretty good.

Bekah:

You sound really good.

Dan:

I think one thing is, you probably could be closer to your mic? That's -- I mean, maybe not. I don't know. When you're -- it's when you're moving away -- so, like, if I sit back here, does that sound- that sounds like noticeably worse? More echo-y -- echo thing?

Bekah:

So- so for the listeners-

Bogdan:

Yeah [laughs].

Dan:

Yeah [laughs]?

Bekah:

Dan has scooted his seat back about four feet.

Dan:

All right.

Bogdan:

Okay, okay, okay [laughs].

Dan:

So- so that was the one thing I- I read about -- so they do like- do like the hang 10 like this, you know, or- or whatever. And then that's like distance from-

Bogdan:

Oh, okay. Than that should not move. Which is make sense.

Dan:

-your mouth to the microphone that should be ... right. And that's- that's hard. Yeah. It's hard not to- it's hard not to move. But like, that gets you picked up more, but then there's a bunch of other stuff too, so --

Bogdan:

Okay.

Dan:

We don't have to get into it on that.

Bogdan:

Maybe we -- yeah.

Dan:

Maybe we do a whole episode on it sometime [laughs].

Bogdan:

[Chuckles] Okay. Sorry. I'm sorry.

Dan:

Anyway --

Bekah:

Maybe- maybe a live stream. And then, the visual will be easier to the scene.

Bogdan:

Yeah, screen the sh- screen the share -- share the screen [laughs]. Yeah.

Dan:

Okay. Anyway, I don't know what you-

Bogdan:

Origin story.

Bekah:

Origin story.

Dan:

-were saying, or you were talking -- yes [laughs].

Bogdan:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. We were doing about origin story. Well, yeah. Yeah. It's very- it's very linear and r-r-rather boring, but ... yeah. Cuz I did -- so, in Romania we have high schools that are very specialized. And I did one of those with computer science. So I kind of knew I wanted. I- I have -- my family is mainly like, musicians. A lot of them are trained musicians, so I didn't wanna do that cuz I thought it's boring, and [laughs] fired back to me a few years later. But yeah, I thought it's boring. So I went straight to like this mathematics computer science high school. So I- I kind of knew I wanted to do this. I kind of hated it at the time as well, you know? The whole C, C++ things that don't make any sense when you're young and you just wanna make -- was the rectangle move on the screen, right? I don't wanna spend my -- yeah. Anyways. But yeah, I graduated that, and then I moved to The Netherlands to do applied computer science, which was another [chuckles] surprise. Cuz it was this program of like computer science, of course, but like, electrical engineering as well, which, look. I could have [chuckles] look it up, and I did look it up. Like, I kind of knew what the program was, right? But I did -- I wasn't sure if this gonna be a lot of -- I didn't even know what's electrical engineering and turned out to be like very ... not cool [laughs]. Like, not- no-not toward the field itself. This is just for me, like in university years. It was -- I was like, yeah. Still, I wanna make rectangles move. But then I wa- got super, super, super lucky in my first year of university, I think. I got a job — remote job — in Romania for like one of my friends' father that had this, like e-commerce kind of low key business, where I got into Node. I did not lie on my interview, but something made him think I actually know Node. I- I did- I did know about Node, right? I was like [laughs] --

Dan:

You've heard- you've heard of it. Yeah, yeah.

Bogdan:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cuz I did -- so I, like, the -- I remember -- so, the very first thing I did, like, web development was, back in high school was like this pi- p5.js — which is still around, they're very much happening — but there was this -- people doing this c-c-coding train, they were super into it, and I did like -- they did, like, the snake, and I did the snake, and then I wanted to- to do, like- like a multiplayer thing or like a chat room for it, and I- I- I knew that you can use Node to do that [laughs]. And that was the only information I had. And I was like, "Yeah, you can do like, WebsSockets, right?" Yeah. But anyways, they were- they were- they were very nice to me and like, they actually hired me, and I learned a lot about like databases, and Node, and stuff like that. And then the second year of university came in when I was actually teaching more programming. And I finally kind of overlapped the two, and be like, "Oh, okay, I'm doing this for my job. I'm learning about this," you know? We're -- even in school, we learned a bit like about testing, and CI/CD, and things like that. I was like, "Oh, this is actually cool and useful." So I ... yeah ... tried to [chuckles] finish school, and then [laughs] continued, then I got a university job like teaching Java, which was- which was bad [laughs]. Look, I have this theory and [laughs] I hope I never have to- to get a teaching job again cuz if I say this. No, I don't. No, it's not- no, it's not- it's not a hard day. But it's just like, teaching programming, it's so easy. Cuz you just like -- you just say, like, "I -- I'm- I'm- I'm gonna show you how to Google." And if they have questions, you just Google [Dan chuckles] in front of them, and I -- and- and- and find out things together. Which is nice, you know? They also do -- need to know how to Google. But, yeah. And then I got an internship at another university, but for research. And then I moved here, to another city, while still studying. I did my internship, I got a full contract after, but Corona happened. So I was staying here working full-time while ... finishing my- my- my bachelor basic or barely like [chuckles] trying to finish my- my bachelor. And then I- I -- the- the Maastricht University research position was absolutely amazing. Like, it's -- it was academia, which was kind of new to me, cuz I- I always knew I wanna be an -- a developer, right? Or an engineer. But I was like, "Okay, we can combine this," right? I don't know a- a lot about research, but I [chuckles] know about development, so we can definitely overlap. Cuz it was also like a legal -- kind of legal tech [silence] space, where they had a lot of data where they had a lot of ideas about tech, but th-they did the developers. So, yeah, we kind of combined it very nice. But things slowly came to an end. And finally, two months ago I got a new software engineering job, to a digital creative internet, whatever they [chuckles] call it -- agency, in The Netherlands. So I plan to- to stay doing Node, basically. Root Node, React, TypeScript, things like that. So, yeah. I think that's- that's it. This is today [laughs]. Just recently joined a --

Bekah:

A cool --

Bogdan:

Yeah.

Bekah:

You recently joined ... I'm sorry. I think I cut you off.

Bogdan:

Yeah, no. That was it. Just recently, [chuckles] like two months ago, I think. It was April. So, yeah.

Bekah:

So I wanna back up a little bit and ask some questions about the schooling that you've done. So, it sounds like there was maybe more practical application than I've seen from universities in the United States, which computer science degrees have a lot of, like, theoretical content, algorithms, and that kind of stuff. Is that- is that accurate statement? Or were you doing a lot of that stuff too?

Bogdan:

Yeah. We- we were doing that for sure as well. But yeah, with an eye on electrical engineering and kind of like -- so, in- in The Netherlands, they have this system of like universities, what they call universities -- research universities, which is basically like a college university in- in- the US as well, right? Where they, you know, they teach, you know, like a normal [chuckles] university. And they have these things ... this like, just wh-wh-what they call 'hogeschool' or like 'HBO's, where- where like more professional schools. In English, they call them Universities of Applied Sciences, but it's in- in- in Dutch doesn't really go -- it's not ... really -- I think it -- I- I think it's a university, but like -- yeah, there's a difference. Here's like more of a -- like a very- like a very engineering, like kind of applied -- hands on experience. It's also longer. It's four years instead of three. And you have to do internships, you have to work with companies, you have to work with clients, and things like that, which is for people that wanna do, you know, wanna get straight to- to work and things like that. Which goes very well for like, engineering, and things like that.

Bekah:

Yeah. Interesting.

Bogdan:

So, it was one of those, you know? Where you- where you have like, more like programming, but like kind of rather like ... the- the applied part was like more the electrical part rather than web, right? Like we didn't- we didn't learn about web development, but we did learn about operating systems or microcontrollers or thing that go into electrical engineering field.

Dan:

Did you have to do assembly?

Bogdan:

I think I did not-

Dan:

Oh, that's good.

Bogdan:

-unfortunately. No, but we- we -- it was- it was insane. Like, I absolutely -- it- it- it was insane. And- and- and we did microcontrollers, of course, and all that, like, chip programming, and things like that, which I absolutely dreaded [chuckles] and I couldn't wait to be over. And although it was interesting, right? Like, operating systems was such an interesting thing, but it's just like the- the- the whole thing of like patterns, and ideas, and things you can have in web development, you -- I couldn't have in- in operating systems, you know? You- you can't get too creative about [chuckles] it. Cuz there are -- especially in microcontrollers, like, they- they have this- this huge books and guides about- about them, and you have to know things, and you have to look for things that are just set, right? Or- or- or, you know, I don't know enough to- to- to make this [chuckles] conclusion, but it's still like -- the way I saw it was like, this is -- I can't- I can't be creative here, you know? But I finished it anyways. But, yeah [laughs].

Dan:

Yeah. No, I- I love that. I love hearing about that, you know? And you have used this phrase a few times when you're telling the story about ... like, I didn't get to move around boxes or like, you know, move around boxes [Dan and Bogdan chuckles] like, and like, I- I -- and like, it's -- I know that's like a funny way of saying it, but I- I totally connect with that because that's- that's something that I personally, like ... I don't think -- I mean, I never- I never put it exactly like that, but it's the same thing of that -- the thing that drew me to programming was the -- was that. Was moving around boxes. Or like doing a thing, like, doing a thing, and then getting to see it, like, move or happen or ... just see it in front of me, right? And- and while, like academically, some of the more like the operating -- the lower level stuff is, you know, interesting, maybe [chuckles], you know? I lo- I totally lost my connection to all of it. Like, I- I -- like -- and I -- like I said this before, that's- that's when I switched majors out of computer sciences was, I was deep into that- that ... like, section, you know what I mean? As, you know, assembling, and I was doing -- I wasn't ... yeah, I don't know. I don't think I was -- that semester, had even done anything where I got to like hit save or compile and see something happen, you know what I mean [chuckles]? And it- and it was just like -- and I lost my interest, you know? And I think the -- it seems like you have acknowledged that in, you know, yourself and use that as — maybe whether it was consciously or not — use that as like a sort of driving force in- in finding, you know, your path, and- and like your happiness. Like, you could have, possibly, and maybe -- I mean, some people, I guess, could have forced themselves down the line of, you know, the electrical engineering and gotten a job ... I don't know, soldering things [chuckles] or something. I dunno [laughs]. But- but- but, you know, but like you ... I don't know. It- it's -- I- I just connect with that. I- I just wanted to like, kind of highlight that because it's -- it- it -- finding what makes you happy in a- in a field is- is important. Especially com- field like computer science, because there are gonna be some people that ... will get into those microcontrollers and be totally hooked, you know? And-

Bogdan:

Yeah, of course. Some find it cool [??], right? Yeah.

Dan:

-some people- some people not, you know? And ... right. Yeah. No. So, I- I think that's great.

Bogdan:

Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, I'm not- I'm not- I'm not ... yeah. It's just like -- also, like, I remember since I was younger from high school, like, people had a thing for Arduinos, which I think that- I- I think that- I think that's what -- I think that's why I thought it's gonna be cool. Cuz like everybody was like, "Oh my god. Arduino. Like, you -- we have to do this," and things like that. And I'm like, "I do -- okay [chuckles]." I- I loved it, right? I think it's cool. Like, Raspberry Pis and things like that is fun. But ... yeah. Yeah. I think, I ... yeah. Like, there where I agree with you. Like, I need to see immediate change, and I- I need a reaction from things I'm doing cuz otherwise, I feel like I spend the whole day doing nothing. That's not super-

Dan:

Yeah.

Bogdan:

-productive [chuckles].

Bekah:

So, when you were doing the research part of things, was that more ... data sciencey or what were you doing there?

Bogdan:

Yeah. Kind of. Yeah. We had a lot of ... yeah. There was- there- there was data science part, and again, diving in with little data science knowledge, cuz I didn't -- yeah, I didn't study that. I had ideas. I- I knew Python, for example. But I got -- I- I- I got very -- I got- I gotten -- [chuckles] get very lucky to- to find this amazing person that really, really took care of everything, like my mentor, and one of my manager, bosses, whatever. The person that I actually got a job through. And she was super amazing. And she found all these cool opportunities, and all these relations, and connections, and papers we wrote, and projects we got in. So, I had the time to- to learn it on- on the way, right? Like, I didn't have to worry like, "Oh, what am I gonna do now?" I'm always just like, I knew what I have to do, but I also knew what- what I have to learn. So there was amazing. But then we also did APIs, for example, which was my previous job as well. And I think this is one of the things that ... kind of help them make the decision to hire me cuz they were working already on these APIs. But again, related data, like, they had -- we had a lot of data. We needed to serve it to different sources, to different other universities, for example, create some user interfaces, and stuff like that. So we created this APIs ... for them. Which was more engineering, but then, yeah. The data science part, we did a lot of machine learning, and analysis, and NLP for the papers we were- we were writing. It's very [chuckles] different and definitely some- something that I really enjoy doing, but I- I knew it -- the- the- the whole- the whole way -- and it was almost three years, right? I knew the whole time, I don't wanna do that. I really much enjoyed it. And I really much loved working with all these people, but I- I knew for sure, it's- it's not something I'm gonna spend my, you know, my next, whatever years doing. So it was like --

Bekah:

Was there- was there like a moment that you realized that? Or it was just kind of like, "I can do this, but I'm not super interested in it."?

Bogdan:

Yeah ... We-well [laughs], I kind of learned on the job, right? So I didn't have a moment to actually reflect, but it was keep on coming, keep on coming. I am talking about moving rectangles again [chuckles]. This is very serious, so don't- don't take it too seriously, but it is. And I -- it's not that [chuckles] seriously. But I ... so, look. I like ... I like things to- to- to look good. It's- it's very silly, but I like the tools that I use to look very good. And Jupyter notebooks are not [laughs]. And of course, you can load them in VSCode, and things like that. But the whole concept of like staring the whole day at those notebooks was something ... it was something weird for me. I was like, it's not supposed to be like that. I don't know if you ever worked wi-with data, or with people that are doing data stuff, but those notebooks are getting extremely messy. I don't know if it's for everybody or it was- it was just for us, it was insanely messy. Like there's -- there- there's -- there was impossible to, like, pick up a notebook I wrote, you know, three weeks ago, and I still understand it. Like, it was- it was insane. So I was like, I don't know for how long I can, like, guessing my, you know, my- my thoughts [chuckles], you know? So, of course, I mean, there's -- there are ways to do it better. It's not like I tried everything. It was just like ... the comfort of like working, and things like that. I think more. And also, I didn't know, and I still don't know, and I'm not at all interested in statistics, which ... of course we can argue if that's important or not. But I felt like I should. Like, we are talking ab- we were always talking about this models, and probab- probabilities, and numbers, and constants, and things like that, that I never had an idea about, which I was trying to, but like, it seemed like I'm really, really, really like behind all of this. And I don't have the- the- the passion to- to learn it.

Bekah:

So it's ... oh, it sounds like you kind of knew what you wanted to be doing and you did kind of enjoy that research aspect of things, but you knew that was not gonna be like the place that you -- your ideal job or what you wanted to be doing. So, how did you make that decision to move from that research position and do something that you would rather be doing?

Bogdan:

So I- I never really knew what I wanted to do af- i-i-in- in the time -- the -- wh-what -- all I wanted to- to do -- no. All I knew was, so we- we were- we were doing a lot of programming by the end of my employment list. So on the way ... after the last summer -- so, basically last summer, cuz I left in February, right? So, after the last summer, a lot of other -- not a lot. Like, important people that I was working close with -- seniors, left. So I was kind of around, trying stuff. And having another -- other people, like on the same level with me, and things like that, it's really became ... not, you know ... productive. And I'm not- and I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I think it's a- it's a- it's a great thing for them to kind of have the- the, you know, this growing experience, and maybe growing pains, cuz it was still a very young lab, right? Kind of understand th-th-that seniorship matters, and things like that. And you need mentorship, and you need seniors, and things like that. So there was a thing. So I was- I was slacking a little bit behind because I had a- I had a very weird period after I got COVID. Even a year after, I was still very sick and things like that. So they were very, very nice and kind to allow me to- to- to work as- as- as much as I can. Which was [chuckles] not a lot, right? So I- I- I did the work that I had to do as- as- as much as I can, and then when I got a little bit better, I started looking for jobs. And I wasn't sure what I want to do. I- I- I was ... I think in -- by the end of the year, I think it was November or whatever, I've been to web summit in Lisbon. And I've seen all these companies, and all these hot apps, and all these software engineers doing a lot of cool things. And I was like, "I wanna do cool things, but I didn't know what a cool thing is [chuckles]." But I just wanted to, you know, I just wanted to feel like I'm doing very cool things, which I was doing at the moment, but in a different way. Not in an academic [chuckles] way, right? Yeah. And I just- I just applied to the startups that I knew there are in Netherlands, that kind of met there a bunch to another companies, and a bunch of agencies. Cuz I have a f- a friend that is very much into, like, agencies. He also has this very tiny agency, doing like branding and marketing for people, and things like that. And he was living with me at the moment. And -- but he was away, and I was start to apply for jobs, and randomly told him like, "Hey, dude. I applied for this creative agencies -- creative agency in Amsterdam. What do you think about it?" And then the flood gets over [??] -- and he showed me, and told me, and sent me all I could know about [chuckles] agencies in The Netherlands, which is very cool. Cuz I wasn't sure if I wanted to do that, but it sta- finally started to make sense. Like, I need- I need something very dynamic, and I need to move around. But I also need a structure which you sometimes, arguably, don't get in startups and things like that. So yeah, like, an agency seemed like a- like a- like a good place. But then I realized that ev- all of that is project dependent or client dependent, right? Like, you really need to- to match with- with the client -- the right clients, and, yeah, to have the ability to- to be as flexible as I want to be and things like that, which of course they could offer. So it's going ... well [chuckles]. Yeah. Still not sure what I wanna do. I'm just around doing [laughs] programming.

Bekah:

Same.

Bogdan:

Yeah [laughs].

Dan:

Oh man. I- I actually wanted to swing back to sort of change topics, but, you were talking about teaching, I think, when you were doing your master's, right? And you made a joke about teaching -- you're basically teaching people how to Google. But I- I wa- like, I feel like ... that's ... that it [clear throat] excuse me. Maybe that- that's not what you expect from a professor, but like, that is like the right way to learn [chuckles] -- that's what we try to teach everybody. Not profess- like, whatever. I don't know what you ... amateur teach? I- I don't know [laughs].

Bogdan:

No, no, no. For sure. I know what you mean. Yeah.

Dan:

Like the ... you know? But when I'm trying to help somebody learn, you know, one of the- one of the, like, learning how to Google things and figure things out for yourself is like one of the biggest skills to learn when you're becoming a developer, right? Especially for the first time. So I just wondered if you could tell me a little bit more about like that experience of teaching in that structured, you know, in a, like a structured way as a- as a- as a ... what- what do you call yourself? A professor? A- a ... I don't know what the right term, just --

Bogdan:

No. Teaching- teaching- teaching assistant, whatever.

Dan:

Teaching assistant. Yeah. So as a TA, like -- but like, what -- can you just describe a little bit more about that? From like -- cuz I've watched and been on both sides of, you know, learning from sort of independent online version, right? But I don't think we've had anybody on the podcast who has, like, taught in that -- taught computer science in this structured way.

Bogdan:

Yeah, it was -- it- it- it --

Dan:

I know I might be misremembering this, Bekah, but [chuckles] ... I'm pretty sure -- so I'd like to hear about it. Could you just tell me more about that experience?

Bogdan:

No, for sure. But also, like, they take it with a grain of salt. Like, I've been a -- I was a TA. Like, I was still a student, right? So I also being --

Dan:

Sure, sure. So you- so you weren't doing the lesson plans and stuff, but-

Bogdan:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dan:

-still you were -- I- I just would like to hear about it. Cuz it's-

Bogdan:

Yeah [laughs].

Dan:

-it's like the- the process of learning this stuff is endlessly fascinating to me and ... you know?

Bogdan:

It is. I think it's very ... yeah, I think it's -- I think education, especially in computer science is very fascinating. Because it's so ... it's so, I don't know. It's -- yeah. Anyways, [laughs] we'll get in. Yeah, I think that ac- actually helped a lot. Like, being a TA helped a lot because I don't think people have too many [chuckles] expectations, I think. I don't know. They didn't. I had great students, two times, cuz there were two periods. And it was- i-i-it was interesting cuz the -- that- that- that's why I think it's very fascinating. Like, we had different people of different, like, levels, right? Like it happened -- they were all in the first year, most probably. Well, I think it was first year. Yeah. But some of them had some mathematics experience, some programming, some none, and things like that, but they- they all seemed to- to kind of like get stuck in the same kind of places, which I think it's- it's -- I think it's interesting. Like, I don't- I don't know much about [chuckles] education. But I think it's very interesting to kind of see how they deal in different ways w-with that. And what I used to do and I thought it was very funny — not funny in a mean way [laughs] — it's just funny to- to just observe it. It's just like, s-see how they deal with it. And then like, let them deal with the -- in the way of like -- I was like, "Oh, yeah. Look, your colleague did it that way. Why don't you like ... go around this way," and things like that, which I think it was a nice- it was a nice, like, not bonding experience, but kind of in a way of like level it down, especially cuz for some of- some of -- it was in my ear as well. Like, for some of us, it was so, so like intimidating to know that we had this people in the class that were, you know, having experienced in programming and things like that. I don't know why. Cuz this is -- it's never a competition [chuckles], right? But it was just weird. It was like, "Oh my god. They know everything and I don't know nothing [laughs]," and things like that. And then, yeah, later it happened for me to be in that position and, you know, showing people -- or students, as a TA, like to ask those stupid question is very important. And to Google everything is very important. Cuz I also never understood ... why it was seen so f- it- it was not seen as like, you know, frowned upon. It's just like a thing of like the- the stigma of like, 'Oh, I need to know things.' It's just like, you don't know Java ... words or whatever, you- you know how to- to think [laughs], you know? So, yeah. I think it was very cul- cultivating for me as well. And also Googling in front of people is cool cuz, you know, it's like --

Dan:

Yeah, yeah. So --

Bogdan:

I, especially -- I'm- I'm good at Googling. So [all laugh] I think, I- I like to show off my skills as well.

Dan:

Oh, and it is a skill, you know? I mean, like, way -- a-and i-it's that -- it's about like crafting the right, you know, like, figure out what to Google, you know what I mean, is- is-

Bogdan:

Yeah. It's hard.

Dan:

-is hard. And- and that's like -- that's something I try to do some- some, you know, when people ask questions is if it's something that was an e-e-easy like ... Google search for me, I will try to share what I searched for [chuckles], you know?

Bogdan:

Yeah. For sure, for sure. Yeah.

Dan:

Like- like not -- I don't, like, claim that I knew this off the top of my head, you know, but like, I also wanna try to, like -- I don't mean to do that to be like, "You could have just Googled this," you know? You know what I mean? Like-

Bogdan:

Sure.

Dan:

-cuz that's not like -- there's that- that -- anytime you're using that 'just' word, like the word 'just', it's probably a bad, like a- like a -- you wanna rethink what you're thinking because the -- I knew the right terms to search for, to find that answer, you know what I mean? But not everybody does. And, you know, you -- that's something you learn over time. And it's- it's an important skill. With computer science, a lot of the answers are out there ... if you can find them, you know [chuckles]?

Bogdan:

Yeah.

Dan:

I've also been trying to do that on- on our- on our stream sometimes is- is just Google things. The same thing, you know? Cuz we're- we're just like learning at -- you know, Kirk and I are doing that TypeScript Tuesdays and so, I'm learn- Kirk is mostly teaching, I'm mostly learning [chuckles]. But it's like ... yeah, we just didn't know something. So we looked it up and there's no -- I don't feel bad about that [chuckles] at all, you know? And- and nor should I, you know? I- I think that's a great ... I dunno. That's a great attitude to have. I- I would love to see that as a- as a TA, you know? Cuz I think it's -- it can be easy to -- when you are ... when you're teaching or in that position of like ... I dunno, teaching somebody [chuckles]. It could be easy to like, wanna ... know the answers or wanna like -- I, like -- seem like, you know the answers so that people trust you more or something like — no, not in like a nefarious way, but just as a ... as like a ... I don't know. For me. This is my personal speaking. It- it's like I- I can fall into that trap. And I- and I try not -- like, I- I- I -- it takes effort to, sometimes for me, to like, not do that, you know [chuckles]?

Bogdan:

Yeah. [Unintelligible].

Dan:

Because I don't, obviously, know everything and ... I don't know.

Bekah:

I think --

Dan:

And it's okay, you know? It's like --

Bekah:

So much of it is based on our education, right? Because like you're tested, and you're expected to know information, right? You're not expected to look up information and find the answers. And so then going on through years of doing that, there's -- it- it feels like it's not successful to have to look something up like, "Oh, you failed. You should already know this." But it's -- that's not the case, especially with this now. So, you know, it's always how to find the answer is more important. And I read a tweet. I don't know who tweeted it out, but it was like, the difference between a junior developer and a senior developer is they're more effective. Senior developers are more effective at Googling. You just get-

Bogdan:

It's true. For sure.

Bekah:

-faster, you know more words that you can use, you can narrow it down more quickly. And- and I think that that- that's ... a lot of what it is [chuckles], right? Like, knowing what to look for and what the approach is because you ha- you have to figure it out. And tech moves too quickly to memorize everything that you're doing. So kn-knowing how to Google and knowing that that's what's expected of you, I -- is really important. It's a -- you are should not be asking for the answers every time you hit a roadblock. You should be looking things up and figuring out how to do them. And that's, Nick and I -- Nick Taylor and I did a Lunch and Learn ... last week? Where we kind of talked about like, what do you do? How do you navigate those challenges? How do you ask questions? That kind of thing. Cuz it's important.

Bogdan:

Yeah, it is. I- I- I, yeah. I think that's great, the- the- the way you put it. Because I find -- so what I think about is [unintelligible] that [chuckles] I find, with all due respect and love for my parents, for example, that call me every time their phone doesn't work, right? And I'm thinking about this. Cuz it's like, look, what I'm doing is just goo- I don't know your phone by heart, you know? You -- they also have Android phone [laughs]. So, I'm like -- no, I'm not saying it is a weird thing. I just like, I didn't use an Android for eight years now. I'm like -- I'm not gonna- I'm not gonna know what you do- what do you have to press. I'm just gonna Google it and things like that. But then I kind of took one step back and realized like what- what happened with me at least? And I don't know, I'm not sure for how many other, like, people Eastern Europeans [chuckles], is that relatable? Not the Eastern Europeans. Everybody that doesn't speak natively English, I believe. Like, we didn't -- I didn't have a computer for a very long time, right? And when I had it f-for the first time, I was young -- still young, but like, I didn't know English. But [chuckles] until once I started to learn English, I realized how much -- how many things you can Google, and how many YouTube videos you can watch. It was insane [laughs]. It was like the- the whole world open. And finally, I started to Google everything. Like ... even for my mom, like, I was like, "Hey, do you need this?" And na, na, na. Yeah. And then, I think that's a thing. Like, I think that's where they- they- they draw the line, you know? It's just like ... navigating the internet to- to finances and things like that. Which of course, it learn -- i-it's a skill, right? Like, you have to learn it. They didn't take the time to do it, so that's okay. I'm gonna do it for them [laughs]. But yeah, like, I think that's- that's- that's, yeah. That's like, yeah. How- how you're supposed to- to- to think about things. Like, am I supposed to know my phone by heart? No, of course not. Cuz it has ... thousands of menus.

Bekah:

Well, it's not necessary, you know? Like the other thing. We need to --

Bogdan:

Exactly. Why would you add -- exactly. Yeah. Why would you adding all of that if you do it once a year or whatever [chuckles]? Which happened to me, by the way, about -- talking about phone. I'm sorry [laughs]. I was- I was coming back from a concert the other week. And it was like a three hours train ride, and my phone just froze. And it was- it was not dead, but it was just like, the screen was open, but I couldn't click anything. And I tried to restarted it the way I know it [chuckles] and things like that. And it didn't work. And I s- I didn't have anything on me. Like, all it was just my phone and my wallet. So I sit on a train for three hours doing nothing. Which was a new experience [laughs], you know? I never- I never get to do that. Also in the middle of the night. But then I got home, Google it from my laptop, and there is a second way to restart your phone, you know? And that worked actually. And I was like, "Wow, should I know this? I don't- I don't think so [laughs]."

Dan:

Why didn't you just look it up on your phone [Dan and Bekah chuckle]?

Bogdan:

Yeah, exactly. Why, right? Yeah [laughs]. Exactly. Yeah.

Dan:

Yeah.

Bogdan:

Yeah. No, but it was a nice three hours of ... thinking [unintelligible].

Dan:

Wow. So did you like-

Bekah:

It was tough.

Dan:

-did you like, go into alternate dimensions or something [all laugh]? You do a zen, you know?

Bogdan:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it was weird. I wished- I wished people would just sit in the same, like kind of train compartment with me, and speak English, cuz everybody was speaking Dutch around me. And I was like, "Please someone speak English. So --" I just- I just wanted to hear it. I didn't [laughs]- I didn't wanna talk with them. I just wanted to hear so I haven't to like think about ... it's weird. I never get to do that.

Bekah:

Do you speak Dutch?

Bogdan:

No [laughs]. No, I don't. So that's why. But yeah, I don't -- I never get to- to- to think [chuckles] on my own. I always have music playing in a background or something. It's very weird.

Bekah:

Yeah. It's interesting how much time we occupy our brains constantly. Like there's a- a need -- I read this book, I -- "Bored and Brilliant" maybe? Somebody recommended it to me. And it was really good. Like, your brain needs time to be able to process different things, to be creative to, you know, like store knowledge that you have accumulated. And I think that we don't do that. I mean, I -- like, I'm in the car, I have a podcast on. I'm going for a run, I have a podcast on. I'm in my house, I have four kids. Nobody [chuckles] ever stops. Like, I feel like I might be afraid of silence at this point. Like, what- what will happen if I spend 10 minutes being silent? Let alone three hours. Like --

Bogdan:

I- I think I am. But I don't know. I never re- I never- I never got the time to actually think about it. I- I bet I am, right? Like, I can -- I should be able to go on a walk and not listen to music, right? Like, that's- that's what I was sup- but I can't, and I think it's weird. Like, I- I don't know. It's a very weird thing. And I don't wanna ... I don't know.

Dan:

Yeah. I have the same thing. I have- I have [unintelligible] --

Bekah:

So none of us up meditating then, we're not [chuckles], like --

Dan:

Oh god.

Bogdan:

No way. There's no way it's gonna work. Tr- [chuckles] yeah. Try [unintelligible] --

Dan:

I ... yeah. No, I have the -- so I have the AirPods Pro, and so like to push play, you- you squeeze the thing that sticks down, you know? And the other day I walked outta my office and I didn't have them in, but I thought I had them in, and I squeezed my ear a little [Dan and Bekah laugh]- a little, and I'm like, "Well, that was- that was really weird."

Bogdan:

Wow.

Dan:

I'm just so used to having them in my ears [laughs].

Bogdan:

Wow.

Bekah:

Are you --

Bogdan:

That's embarrassing [laughs].

Bekah:

So now --

Dan:

Like, yeah. I need to listen to my podcast for 30 seconds while I go get water. Like --

Bekah:

Yeah.

Bogdan:

Yeah, exactly [laughs].

Bekah:

Yeah. No, it's true! Yeah.

Bogdan:

I do that. Yeah. Or on the toilet. Like, I- I got to going to the toilet. I can't just like ... peeing [??]. That's weird.

Bekah:

Yeah. Have to be occupied [laughs]. I will say it's- it's nice weather here. Like very spring weather, and my kids like to swing on the swings, and I like to swing on the swings, and that is like maybe the only time that I can just -- I'm still, like, moving and ... my brother was telling me ... I can't remember. I think it was a neurologist that- that was saying, "To improve your memory, you should try thinking in complete sentences for like 10 minutes a day," or something. And so [chuckles] the other day I was like practicing that as I was swinging on the swing next to my kid, like, "There is a tree and the leaves on the tree are very greenly [chuckles]," I didn't say it out loud. It was just in my head [Bogdan laughs], and I'm ike, "This is ridiculous." I never talk in complete sentences, first of all. But- but also, it was really hard. I was like, I was shocked at how much my mind wondered while I was trying to stay focused. It was like, "Wait a minute." I've just like, "Where -- how did I get to this to-do list that I'm rattling off in my head? Because I was just talking to myself about tree leaves," you know?

Bogdan:

That's -- that -- like, yeah. Exactly. The w- the way the brain just like, worked, when- when you don't do -- like, my -- so my- my therapist told me, like, when I used to have this anxiety things, like, whatever moments, like, my- my super plan, which I 100% thought it- it's working, cuz it made me feel better, was just like, if I- if I feel weird, I'll just like straight up, like put on something ... something that I can hear and go for a walk, for example and things like that. Which turns out it's not good [laughs]. Cuz, no. Cuz at the end, she was like, "Why don't you just like ... sit down, and like, think about what's happening? Or like, let your- your- your mind understand like what's happening, and why you feel that way, and things like that." Which ... I'm gonna give it to her [Bogdan and Bekah laugh], in a ways. It worked for me. In a- in a very weird way. It's just like -- but then you start to, like -- I start to like, you know, like, as you said, like realize, oh, that's -- those leaves there, they're actually very nice [chuckles], you know, and things like that. Which- which never happens when- when ... yeah. I even, yeah. Like I, even before sleep, I like to- to- to do this, and to hear something, and things like that. I had a- I had a friend coming into my room. And I was listening to music, and he was like, "Do you listen music in your bed?" I was like, "What [laughs]? Of course I do. Why don't you?" And it [Dan chuckles] turns out not a lot of people do that [chuckles]. Yeah. It's weird. The brain is weird.

Bekah:

Yeah. I --

Dan:

The brain is weird.

Bekah:

I mean, I even -- like, I have a fan running when I'm sleeping. Because I can't ... take the silence, ever. Ugh, sleeping in hotels is like the- the worst. I hate sleeping in hotels.

Bogdan:

I hate it. Yeah.

Bekah:

They're so quiet. Or they're really noisy. We stayed in a-

Dan:

Yes.

Bekah:

-hotel this weekend. And there were people out in the hallway until, like, two AM.

Dan:

Ugh.

Bogdan:

Oh, no.

Bekah:

That wasn't ideal. Cuz ... well, I couldn't understand what they were saying because it was a different language [Bogdan chuckles]. So then it was like less fine.

Bogdan:

I'm staying with Dutch [Bekah chuckles]. Well, I --

Dan:

Were they happy? Were they happy, or they angry, or --

Bekah:

I am --

Dan:

Medium?

Bekah:

I- I'm not sure. I feel like all of the above. But at one point there was like, this wasn't -- this was during the day. There were two young boys, like wondering down the hallway. And you can tell their mom was the one that came outta the room, because like, she had a total mom face on. Those kids were not supposed to be wondering in the hallway. And she walked with like, "You are in big trouble [chuckles]." It was like maybe my favorite part of the entire hotel stay. Like, I feel you. I've been there [Bekah and Bogdan chuckle].

Dan:

U-universal- universal language. [Unintelligible][laughs].

Bekah:

Mm-hmm.

Bogdan:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah [laughs]. Yeah. I used to -- I- I- I used to live on a moderately crowded city -- street, for Maastricht, I mean, where there were a bunch of bars, and cafes, and things like that. And every single night, people would ... fight? But it would fight in Dutch, which was so frustrating. Cuz I was so curious. Like, no. Like, seriously. They f- they- they were fighting so mm- first of all, so long. Like, you know, you- you- you scream at each other for a few seconds [chuckles] and it go -- but they were fighting for so long, and every single night I was so -- that was my main motivation to learn Dutch [laughs]. Just to understand what- what are they fighting about? What is --

Dan:

To understand the drama [chuckles]?

Bogdan:

Yeah. Like, exactly. Like [chuckles] --

Dan:

All of that.

Bogdan:

Yeah. But then I moved. So I don't have that excitement in my life anymore.

Bekah:

I feel like I would be tempted to record it. And then trying and get it translated [laughs].

Bogdan:

Translate it after [laughs]? Never do that. Maybe I should [chuckles]. I tried that with the doctor's office a bunch of times when they have the number pressing things, but it didn't work that well.

Bekah:

Ugh. That's frustrating.

Bogdan:

Robot voices, maybe. I dunno [chuckles]. Yeah.

Bekah:

Okay. So, you've kind of like, navigated all over this career path. I feel like you've done a lot of different things and have a lot of knowledge. And it seems like you're on a path that you're enjoying now. What advice do you have for anybody else that's kind of like navigating where they wanna go? I especially think like, there's so many people coming into tech right now. And I think that there's this focus on ... you have to do this one thing. Like, you have to do wh-whatever program or whatever self-taught path you went on, but there are a lot of different jobs in tech, you know? So, what advice — like, based on your journey — would you give to people who are like doing that exploration and trying to break in right now?

Bogdan:

So, I mean ... without adding to the gatekeeping, cuz you know, everybody -- I feel like, we all have our ways and things like that. I'm not gatekeeping it, but I can- I can talk about like what worked and -- which is very tricky as well. Cuz I was- I was actually talking a few days ago with someone -- with a person that also just started — switch from physics to computer science and now they got an internship. And I think it's hard. I -- it's hard for me to be in that position. And also, I think I ask a question about this the other day at Virtual Coffee. Because I- I still feel like, everything is so overwhelming already, and it's so hard to find ways to do things. Like, me chipping in with [laughs] things would add to that. But I mean, it's- it's- it's very interesting. So like my- my- my advice in that regard was -- what I was thinking at the moment ... based on my school experience and my jobs that I had on the way ... is -- and I'm not sure exactly [chuckles] how valid it is -- not valid. It's just like, we- we already have arguments about this, right? Like, the way -- the right way to start to- to learn programming and things like that. Oh, should you learn ... React, although you don't know JavaScript or whatever. But what I- what I find very interesting about my- my experience is that I spent so much time trying to learn things -- fundamental things, which of course are very important. I'm not gonna argue that, will helps us in- in- in many, many ways to- to do our day jobs, but I didn't have time to- to focus, you know, like profess- not professionally, but like academically ... on things that I'm actually using at my job. So, look. You do need Java- you do- you do need to know- to know JavaScript to- to- to work in React and things like that. But if you spend too much time on that, you'll never -- y-y-you'll- you'll get a little bit later to these things. And y-y-you might, as I did it with electrical engineering, I- I- I missed- I missed the opportunity to get excited about it. So I feel like, if we would spend so much time on learning the basis of- of JavaScript, and this is not [chuckles] advocating me -- this is not me advocating for people not to [laughs] learn the basics. I'm just saying like, the division of time is very important. So, I think ... do-doing -- mainly doing ... I don't know. For example, frameworks, and then picking up as a hobby or as a second thing, learning the fundamentals that you don't know ... would accelerate it a little bit more. In the way of -- cuz at the end of the day, as- as, you know, as developers, as engineers, we have to- to find solutions and to build things, right? And we're gonna- we're gonna, eventually, in wha- in some setups, you- you get paid [chuckles] to- to use the best tools you have to build the best things you can build. And ... how you get there, like the- the tools you use to get there, I feel like they're more important than the things that I spent a lot of time learning in, you know, all these formal setups, which was great. I'm not [chuckles] denying that. But I just thinking out loud. I think that was the things focusing on tools, and then learning the- the- the basics and fundamentals as- as we go. Cuz I think that would help us, you know, get a little bit more creative [chuckles]. I think. I dunno. I dunno if it makes sense [laughs]. But that's what I was thinking about the other day.

Bekah:

No, I think that makes total sense. And I think that's a great way to end the episode. So, I wanna thank you, Bogdan, for being here with us today. We really enjoyed having this conversation with you.

Bogdan:

Thank you. Very -- thank you very much-

Dan:

Thanks, Bogdan.

Bogdan:

-for having me. And it's very -- yeah. Very nice to- to be here. Thank you.

Dan:

Thank you for listening to this episode of the Virtual Coffee podcast. This episode was produced by Dan Ott and Bekah Hawrot Weigel. If you have questions or comments, you can hit us up on Twitter at VirtualCoffeeIO, or email us at podcast@virtualcoffee.io. You can find the show notes, sign up for the newsletter, check out any of our other resources on our website, virtualcoffee.io. If you're interested in sponsoring Virtual Coffee, you can find out more information on our website at virtualcoffee.io/sponsorship. Please subscribe to our podcast and be sure to leave us a review. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next week!

The Virtual Coffee Podcast is produced by Dan Ott and Bekah Hawrot Weigel and edited by Dan Ott.