Caitlin Floyd - Mentorship

Show Notes:

Sponsor Virtual Coffee!

Your support is incredibly valuable to us. Direct financial support will help us to continue serving the Virtual Coffee community.

Please visit our sponsorship page on GitHub for more information - you can even sponsor an episode of the podcast!

Virtual Coffee:

• Virtual Coffee: virtualcoffee.io
• Podcast Contact: podcast@virtualcoffee.io
• Bekah: dev.to/bekahhw, Twitter: https://twitter.com/bekahhw, Instagram: bekahhw
• Dan: dtott.com, Twitter: @danieltott

Transcript:

Bekah: 00:06

Hello and welcome to. Is Season eight, episode four of the Virtual Coffee Podcast. I'm Bekah, and this is a podcast that features members of the Virtual Coffee community. Virtual Coffee is an intimate tech community of people at all stages of their journey, and they're here on this podcast sharing their stories and what they've learned, and we're here to share it with you. Here with me today is my co-host, Dan.

Dan: 00:32

What up back? How's it going?

Bekah: 00:34

It's going good. How's it going with you?

Dan: 00:36

It's going very, very well. Um, we just finished recording a really great episode with Caitlin Floyd. So Caitlin is a front end developer who transitioned into tech from a background in linguistics and education and nonprofit management. Um, and, uh, she had a really interesting journey. She, she was doing bootcamp in the, the middle of bootcamp is when the pandemic, uh, shutdowns happened. And so that was a really fascinating story to hear about. And um, and then she shared with us a lot of thoughts on, um, mentorship. And it was a really, really good conversation.

Bekah: 01:10

Yeah. I appreciated hearing all of her thoughts on, uh, how to, how to be mentored, how to be a mentor, and how we all can kind of men. Mentor each other. I think that she did a good job of redefining what we traditionally think of mentorship in a way that will be really useful to a lot of people.

Dan: 01:26

Yeah, totally. There's, there's a lot of, uh, Details and, you know, the, the mentor mentee relationship can look different in a lot of different ways. And I think that Caitlin did a, a great job of breaking down, uh, breaking down those differences and, you know, some of the benefits and downsides of, of different relationships and, um, ways that we can find those relationships in, in our, in our careers, in our lives. Uh, whether it's from the mentee perspective or the mentor perspective. Um, she had a lot of great thoughts on that.

Bekah: 01:57

Yeah, so we start every episode of the podcast, like we start every Virtual Coffee. We introduce ourselves with our name, where we're from, what we do, and a random check-in question. We hope you enjoy this episode. Today's random question is, if you were a character in a video game, what would your special ability or power up be? I. My name is Bekah. I am the developer experience lead at Open Sauce. I'm from a small town in Ohio and my special ability or power up, what was I, I was playing Smash Bros the other day, and there were some cool abilities, but like somebody I think created a portal and could jump through it. That was a pretty cool one. But I always did like in Mario, like the getting the fire flower or whatever it's called, but like who are you gonna hit with the fire? Like you In real life, you can't really just like fireball somebody I don't think.

Dan: 03:13

I mean, you could, but it would be illegal

Bekah: 03:16

Would it be nice?

Dan: 03:17

probably immoral.

Bekah: 03:20

So I guess just a portal.

Dan: 03:23

Uh, okay. Yeah, I am Dan. I live in Cleveland and I do website development. And, um, yeah, I mean, so the question starts with if you're a character in a video game, so like, are you in, in the video game or is this like, I can take a power from any video game and just apply it to my

Bekah: 03:39

Oh, I suppose it meant in a video game, but I decided to apply it to real life instead.

Dan: 03:46

I mean, right. They're different, right? So like, I mean, the easy answer for me is the star, you know, for Mario, right? Where you just become invincible and you get some later ones, you become faster and stuff, and you're really flashy and

Bekah: 03:58

you destroy

Dan: 03:59

uh, sure. Yeah. I'm not big on destroying people. Uh, I know that's kind of your jam, but, uh, portals made me like, that was a good call too. Um, there's the game portal and I think it's called Portal. Uh, it's a video game and it's really, really cool. So you have like a gun and you can, you know, shoot a. The entrance one place and then the exit, another place, you know, and, and uh, basically just instantly transport to anywhere. That's cool. That's cool too. So if I, if I'm going real life, I'm gonna do, do the portal thing. If I'm going video game, I suppose the, the power up, you know, the star from, from Mario, you know, plus you get to wear overalls all the time, which is cool. He got a nice hat. So, I dunno, that's my answer. Go ahead Caitlin.

Caitlin: 04:45

Um, yeah, this is a tricky one. My, the first thing that came to mind was just like I. Power up, like energy. I'm always tired. Uh, so it would be nice to do that. But the portal thing is interesting too. I like, there's a, a similar concept in this classic Japanese, um, cartoon where he has like a door that can take him anywhere, but he also has these like pills you can take to learn anything you want. You just like, it's like a tiny little book and you eat it and you can learn anything you want. I think it's for 24 hours or something, but that could be really handy too. Um, It's not a video game, it's a cartoon, but I feel like that could be a video game. Power to just knowledge, power. Uh, I'll go with that.

Dan: 05:26

I like that. And can you, uh, for the listeners do

Caitlin: 05:29

Oh, I didn't do my intro. Sorry. I was so, I was thinking so hard about my answer to the question. Yeah, sorry. My name is Caitlin. Uh, I use she her pronouns. Um, I am based in the Washington DC area and I'm a front end developer here. Um, and yeah, knowledge would be my superpower of choice.

Bekah: 05:51

I like it.

Dan: 05:52

Yeah, there's that. Also not a video game, but uh, the movie Limitless. You know, there's that pill and just like makes you, I guess, super smart, but also able to learn things very quickly. I don't, I haven't watched that movie for a long time, but you know that, that. If there was no side effects, that always seemed like a pretty cool, uh, you know, fake thing too. It's just the ability to use your brain better, you know?

Bekah: 06:15

Yeah, I could use that. I'm using my brain better.

Caitlin: 06:19

Couldn't we all?

Bekah: 06:22

Well, Caitlin, thanks so much for being here with us today. We're very happy to finally have you on the podcast

Caitlin: 06:30

Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Bekah: 06:31

Um, we always like to get started with your origin story, so let us know like how you got to this point in your career.

Caitlin: 06:37

Sure. Yeah. So, um, yeah, thanks for having me today. I'm very excited to be here. Um, so my journey into tech, um, felt. In some ways kind of inevitable, but it was a very intentional decision on my part. Um, like a lot of people in the VC community, I had a previous career, uh, before going into tech. My, my career was in language access. Um, so I studied linguistics as an undergrad, went into teaching English to speakers of other languages, both domestically and abroad. Um, did some teacher training, so teaching teachers. How to teach. Um, and then, uh, moved into nonprofit management at a refugee resettlement agency where I oversaw the education program there. Um, so I loved that whole career. Uh, it was really rewarding, but uh, at the same time I was starting to experience pretty intense burnout, um, and. Decided to kind of take stock of what I wanted out of a career, because I kind of realized I hadn't been super intentional up until that point about crafting my career. Um, and burnout was a great, uh, motivator to do that. So I, I realized that, um, I already knew that. I loved linguistics, communication, problem solving, um, like pattern recognition. Those were things I liked and, um, that I was good at. Um, but as far as what I wanted from a job, I knew that I wanted something that was a change of pace from constant triaging of problems, uh, like you do in. Bekah, as you know, in teaching, um, as well as in nonprofit management. Um, and so I wanted something that allowed me like deep work and flow state. Um, and I also wanted something more importantly that would give me flexibility to kind of, um, I have work-life balance. Uh, I wanted to. Work to live, not live to work. Um, and so something that could give me flexibility about where I wanted to work from, uh, the concept of remote work was really novel in 2019. Uh, less so now, but it's still a big benefit to working in tech. Um, and you know, also when you're working. Um, so these were all factors that kind of, I had this mixing pot of ideas and it kind of distilled down into, I should really consider software engineering. Um, this is kind of a. Great fit for all of those factors. It's, it's new and exciting. It's a growing industry. Um, and so I, uh, I went to a coding bootcamp, um, and, uh, it was a struggle, but I, I made it through. There were some tears shed, but, um, I made it. Uh, and then, um, I landed at my current job, um, at a news agency, uh, where I'm doing front end development. And it's been, um, a really rewarding, um, Job, and I'm really happy that I made that change.

Bekah: 09:32

That's so good to hear. Uh, can you talk a little bit more about your bootcamp? Were you in person online? How long did that take?

Caitlin: 09:39

Yeah, so I signed up for an in-person bootcamp, but uh, we were supposed to finish in May of 2020, so it did not end as an in-person bootcamp. Uh, we started in-person, um, and then I was also in New York City at the time, so that was, uh, hit quite early, um, in the country. So, uh, Yeah, we were in person for most of the learning modules. The second half of the bootcamp was, um, more project based and that we had one week in person before they told us we were gonna try remote for quote unquote, for maybe a week or so. Uh, we never saw each other again, which was, uh, unfortunate. It was a good learning experience, though I had a great team and, um, we learned trial by fire. We learned how to collaborate remotely. Um, Luckily, we were all very, you know, communication was something we all valued. So, um, it was, um, yeah, I mean, I don't have anything to compare it to. I've always collaborated with other developers remotely, uh, because of, of the nature of how things played out, but I really enjoy it. Um, yeah. Yeah, it was great.

Bekah: 10:49

I think you might be the first person, that we talked to. Um, who was impacted by the pandemic during their bootcamp experience, cuz so many people decided during the pandemic to change careers, but you were in the midst of it during that, which I think is probably more chaotic because, I don't know, like with my kids coming home, like they sent home all their books and stuff, but nobody knew what to do. The, the learning experience was awful just because, It was not anticipated. That had to be. That sounds like it was a, a big challenge.

Caitlin: 11:24

Yeah, definitely it was, um, Yeah, I was not prepared for, for that. I mean, no one was prepared for the pivot, but it was an interesting time to have quit my job and entered, uh, not very junior friendly workforce as an engineer. Um, but I mean, luckily our teachers, you know, were very tech savvy, uh, being, you know, tech professionals. So that pivot I think was. It's easier for them than other teachers I've known who worked in, you know, not in the tech space. I think that I, like my heart went out to so many, I knew a lot of English teachers who were having to figure that out. My mom also is a teacher, uh, and she was having to teach her peers how to, like, what is Zoom? Like what is a webcam? Uh, and it was, uh, it was chaotic for all of us. But yeah, that, that was an interesting time to be going through bootcamp.

Dan: 12:19

Aside from, you know, the. I don't know, technical adjustments that ev everybody would expect. Are there like any, how did the, like learning process, I mean, I know it changed, but, you know, comparing and contrasting since it was the same class right? You know, halfway through whatever. Um, how, how did it, you know, how did not being in the room with people affect your, like the learning process and maybe your enjoyment and or effectiveness of it? Um,

Caitlin: 12:45

Yeah, I mean, I am really grateful that we at least had that initial period of time to get to know each other. So I was at least more comfortable asking my teachers questions or my peers because I had, you know, like run into them, uh, at the, in the kitchen or something. And, and we had that foundation, but pivoting into being remote, um, it was just such a, A paradigm shift of how, how do I approach even like pair programming. Uh, we had to, we were like, all right, let's Google, you know, remote pairing tools, uh, figure it out. Um, and so I think our default was to just over-communicating, which I think was the right call of just, you know, if, if you have a question, just ask it. Um, and if you, you know, if you are. You know, I don't know if you see foresee a possible problem, just bring it up. Um, my, my project, um, teammates and I were pretty much on Zoom all day, which was, uh, that was before we had ever heard the term Zoom fatigue. But um, yeah, it was kind of interesting because in some ways it was kind of, Exciting to kind of realize, okay, we can share screens and we can both be researching separate things at the same time, still see each other's screens. We can be looking at docs and kind of like distill down, um, what we've been learning or watching a video. Um, and so I think that kind of helped me to think more flexibly in terms of how I was learning and kind of think more, um, I feel like it, it made me work the elasticity of my brain in a different way. Um, so yeah, I mean, again, I, I don't have anything like to compare it to like my chaotic version was, was the version. I know. Um, but I think it helped me to get an appreciation for some of the collaborative, collaborative tools that are available to you. Remotely that are not available to you in person. Usually you hear people making the opposite case. Um, there's valid arguments to be made there, but I think there are some benefits to working remotely that you don't get working in person. So,

Dan: 15:02

Yeah, totally. I, I, I, uh, I was just, I was curious because I, I feel like the stories that we've heard of people doing boot camps that were more successful, I. Um, were often ones where there's more contact, more communication with other students. Um, you know, whether that's in person or, um, I know one member like did just on their own, but, you know, made a study group with, with the other students, uh, and communicated like that together. Right. Um, and, uh, I feel like the, the people that had a good experience, um, you know, in, in boot camps, uh, often have similar stories like that, you know, and so I was, I was curious and it's good to hear that you guys worked it out, right? The, that, the, um, Since you already knew each other, maybe it was a lot easier to just try to push through some of those things. Whereas if you had started all remote, you know, it's all just strangers and, um, maybe it would've been a harder, uh, especially if the, the teachers or whatever don't encourage that sort of thing, you know, or don't, um, put a emphasis on it. Um, so I don't know. That sounds cool. It sounds like you, you all did like a really good job of, of, uh, making it through that

Caitlin: 16:03

Yeah, we did our best.

Dan: 16:05

Yeah.

Caitlin: 16:06

Yeah.

Bekah: 16:08

What was the mentorship like as you went through boot camp? Was that a thing? Do, do you feel like you had good experiences there?

Caitlin: 16:15

Yeah, we, so our program had, I, I think this is pretty common in bootcamps of some kind of a TA position, um, where those are people who have recently gone through the bootcamp and they're, uh, there to serve as extra support for, um, current students. And so we had that program, um, Which was really, really helpful because sometimes you feel a little, you, something's not clicking very quickly, and if you're talking to your teacher who knows it, like the back of their hand, it can be a little intimidating to ask questions. So, um, having someone who's a little bit more closely. More recently gone through, the experience you had gone through was really helpful for, um, asking technical questions or even asking more career strategic, uh, questions of like, you know, how do I work on a resume or something like that. Um, and so I thought that, um, our program did a really great job of picking, uh, People for those positions who were interested in helping us to develop our skills, who were not just like looking for a resume booster, but actually had, um, some of the skills to back it up, um, the technical skills and the more the soft skills, um, needed to support very vulnerable people who are feeling dumb every day. Um, and, and yeah, I thought that was a, a pretty crucial part of my experience.

Bekah: 17:43

What do you think some of those skills are that make somebody a good mentor?

Caitlin: 17:46

Ooh, great question. Um, I think that first and foremost, um, having a strong sense of curiosity, um, and being, I think that seeking mentorship can be a very vulnerable position. And so having empathy for that and, um, Not being judgmental of someone who's asking you questions is, is a really important starting point. Creating that trust, uh, with someone to open up and seek advice. Um, yeah, I would say that's probably the most important thing. Um, and f for on the, on the empathy point, being able to put yourself in someone else's shoes, um, whether or not you've necessarily had the exact same experience, being able to relate, um, experiences to your own and, and considering. What might be different and what challenges someone might be facing that are different than you, um, will help you to give better advice than if you're just kind of just making it like all about me. This is, you know, everything that worked for me. Um, considering what might have worked for you might not work for someone else.

Bekah: 18:58

Yeah. I love that. It's so important, um, to be able to. Get yourself in somebody else's viewpoint because everybody learns in different ways. They understand differently, and you have to be able to explain those things. And I think that, you know, Caitlin, you've done a great job at Virtual Coffee and a lot of other places in supporting other people. So do you wanna talk a little bit about how that role has shifted for you? So how you went from being the one mentored to being the mentor? Yep. That's it.

Caitlin: 19:30

Yeah. Thanks so much for saying that. That's very, um, nice of you to say, um, Yeah, I think that my introduction to the concept of mentorship was very much from a place of desperation and like, I need someone to help me and tell me what to do because I don't know what I'm doing. Um, and that is not the best, uh, place to be coming from. I think, uh, what really helped me as a mentee, uh, was. Starting to reframe that relationship as, um, you know, not like this all-knowing person who's distilling knowledge down to me, but just someone else who's been where I'm at and has experience to share and that I can learn from. Um, kind of see it, reframing it that way was helpful to me in not being afraid to seek out mentors. Um, I also, it was really helpful to me hearing about the concept of peer mentorship, uh, because that also made it a little bit more attainable that, oh, like I can seek mentorship from my peers. I could also give mentorship to my peers. Um, you know, I might have some experience in a specific area, uh, that's valuable to them. Um, so I think kind of what helped me start to shift into taking on some mentor, some mentoring opportunities was I. Uh, kind of trying to embody that duality of having the curiosity of more of a student. Um, and also kind of trying to take on some of the, more of the generosity of a teacher, um, and realizing that you can do both. You don't have to be like, I am now a mentor. I am no longer a mentee. Like it's, it's a fluid relationship there. Um, and you might even have relationships with some people where you fill both of those roles depending on the day. I like, for example, I have a, um, A colleague that I work with, uh, we started on the exact same day. Um, and we check in regularly and sometimes she is giving me more advice, sometimes I'm giving her more. Um, and so like that helped kind of ease me along the river of mentorship, I guess where I, I was kind of understanding that it's not a finite position that you take. It's, it's just kind of a, it's just relationships at the end of the day. It's just scary words to describe relationships that we all have.

Dan: 21:49

Do you have an, in your current situation, any, like any, um, Any mentor or mentee relationships that are like defined that way? You know, uh, I mean the, the relationship between your colleague sounds like really good and healthy, you know, work relationship. But, um, I was just curious if there's, if there's a situations that you're in now where, there, where it's like it is, it does have that scary word attached to it, you know, like officially.

Caitlin: 22:13

Yeah. Um, at my job I don't currently have. Either a formal mentor or mentee. Um, but I do, uh, volunteer often with the collab lab, which, um, I know you've both heard of, uh, there's a lot of people in Virtual Coffee, but for anyone listening, if they don't know, it's a program that is designed specifically to provide mentorship to or early career developers. Um, And I started there as a mentee, uh, like as a, we call them collabs. Um, and you know, I formally had a few people, uh, who were my mentors. Actually Jono was one of my, uh, mentors. Um, and that was really nice having, sometimes it is helpful to have a defined relationship where you are like, okay, this is the person that I'm asking advice for. There's a time limit set. Um, so it's less pressure, um, for someone to accept that position. Um, And I've since moved into, you know, the other side where I'm mentoring. Um, there and there, there definitely are some benefits to having that structured relationship. Um, but it definitely can be a little bit of a daunting label to put on. So just keeping in mind that it's, it sounds scary, but it doesn't have to be. It's just, you know, cultivating a relationship with someone. Um, and. it, it, I think it feels transactional when you use the word mentorship. Um, but that doesn't have to be a dirty word. Um, and you can always, even as a mentee, you can always be sharing your experience. Um, you, you are always bringing something to the table so you can still benefit your mentor even if, even in that, uh, closely defined relationship.

Bekah: 23:51

Yeah. I also think like as developers, it's important to be around other people of lots of different levels, and you might naturally find yourself in the role of mentor, but it also helps you to understand user experience too, right? Like there are different. People at all different stages. You're not always building for somebody with, um, years of experience and vast amounts of knowledge. So to be able to clearly communicate with a large, uh, audience, I think it that makes it kind of essential to embrace the idea of horizontal mentorship and be willing to listen to other people and to associate with them. Otherwise, you start to get tunnel vision.

Caitlin: 24:29

Yeah, for sure. I think it's so important for, um, anyone who's working in tech to have a. Uh, to constantly have a, a beginner's mindset and always be wanting to learn. So even if you are a, you know, a staff engineer talking to a junior engineer, like to kind of have an extreme example, like coming to that conversation and, and being willing to learn something, um, I think is, uh, a really important skill and really beneficial, um, in terms of long, long-term career growth.

Bekah: 25:04

Yeah, I was recently on Twitter and somebody was asking like, how do you even find a mentor? I'm trying to learn, and so I know I, I. You probably have thoughts on this, so, you know, if you were to offer that person advice, what would it be?

Caitlin: 25:20

Yeah, I definitely have been that person before of like desperately wanting mentors and not knowing where to look. Um, I think one, I mean, one starting point is seeking out peer mentorship. That can be a lot less daunting. I. Or it's, it's a lot more accessible to you. So if you're in a bootcamp, um, you know, linking up with other people in your bootcamp and kind of helping each other out that way, um, There's also a great talk that I saw, um, by, uh Kay Woo on Twitter. Um, I can share the link afterwards, but she talks about the idea of being a stealth mentee, um, where the person who is your mentor doesn't have to know they're your mentor, uh, necessarily. Like if we broaden our. Um, our definition of what mentorship is, um, it becomes a lot more accessible. So if you are just having a conversation with, um, for example, uh, a developer on your team or just chatting with someone at a, at a conference, um, you can learn a lot. You can ask questions, uh, to benefit from their experience. Um, and that's really what mentorship is at the end of the day. Um, you could even, I. Kind of, it's a little bit, uh, outside of the traditional, um, definition of mentorship, but you could read a blog post or watch a video from someone and there's not even necessarily a direct relationship there, but you're still getting the benefits of mentorship if you're learning from their experience. So I think, um, Being less strict with your definition can help you to kind of ease into finding different avenues for mentorship. Um, and then eventually if you're constantly seeking that out, you'll, you'll kind of start to foster those relationships that can lead to more traditional, um, mentorship relationships.

Bekah: 27:03

I love that so much. Uh, it reminds me. Me, I think it was an Instagram story I saw with, um, Sarah Blakely, the founder of Spanx, and she met this woman, I don't know, it was like at the store. She just ran into her. The woman was so excited. She was like, you are my mentor. And she had a list of five mentors, which were like celebrities or people that are prominent in their field. And she said that, She, these are people that she always listens to what they're saying. She watches their talks, she reads their books or listens to their podcasts or whatever because they have so much knowledge that they're sharing and she knows that she'll probably never have a personal relationship with those people. But it's not, it, it's, they are still providing her with mentorship. In a different way. And so it was expanding that definition to really glow it, grow in that knowledge. And so it, even if you go that far, which I think might feel like the extreme opposite end, it's all about like being open to growing and learning from different people. And so I really love the idea of just. Thinking about it in new ways, you know, it doesn't have to be that one-on-one relationship. And like, to be honest with you, I think the, the most impactful mentorship that I've had has been being part of a community because it's just like everybody, just by the nature of developing relationships, respecting each other, trusting each other, growing together. We all kind of mentor each other in a way that's really authentic. And I think when that happens, that's for me personally, something that is, um, a really great experience.

Caitlin: 28:42

Yeah, I totally agree. I think like, um, networking is another one of those words that sounds scary and it, it, it's like has all this pressure associated with it, but really it's just forming relationships and community. Um, and I'm really grateful to vc. I feel like it's really helped me to expand, um, And like take off some of the pressure of what I associated with networking. Um, you're just meeting people and cultivating relationships. Um, and that is a much more comfortable way of forming those kind of mentoring relationships if you are just chatting with someone and getting to know them as opposed to like sending a cold message on LinkedIn of like, I want to be my mentor. Like, that's, that's a lot of pressure if you're just starting to get to know someone. It's a lot more of a, of a natural way of forming that relationship.

Bekah: 29:32

Yeah, and that can be really hard. Uh, there's a lot of people that want the one-on-one time, and I, I do feel like sometimes there's a time and a place for that. But group mentorship in a lot of ways can be more impactful because you hear other people asking questions. And I don't know, there's something about that. I think there's a couple of things. Like one, it helps you to see, it helps, it helped me to overcome imposter syndrome. Like, oh, that person has that question too. Um, it also helps you to learn how to communicate with other people because you know, no matter where you are, you're, you need to be asking questions to learn and to grow and what is the right way to do that? I mean, there's no one right way, but there are definitely ways that are going to help you progress and grow a lot more. Um, if you know how to ask the right questions or what the process looks like. And so even like group mentorship, actually Virtual Coffee, coffee table groups I think are kind of a good example of this cuz we have people at all different levels who are sharing and being part of these groups together. And that the um, diversity of level of folks in those groups, I think allows people to learn and grow a a lot more.

Caitlin: 30:47

Yeah, I totally agree. I think too, another benefit of group mentorship as opposed to one-on-one is that when you're getting one-on-one mentorship, you always have to be aware that this is one person's opinion based on their lived experience. They might have, you know, blinders on as to certain factors that might impact you, as opposed to if you're getting, um, feedback from a group of people, you're getting a, a little bit more of a balanced, um, Perspective on your problems. And so, um, yeah, I think there's a ton of benefits to getting, um, less conventional types of mentorship.

Dan: 31:25

Yeah, I'd agree with that. And, and that's like that, uh, the value of like having more eyes on a, on a thing is, is true in, in mentorship, is true in code. It's true in a lot of ways, you know, and I think I. I mean, not to, you know, pump up Virtual Coffee even more in our own podcast, but, you know, it, it's, it is one of the like really awesome things, you know, and when we're doing, like, octoberfest, right? We have people that have never done open source before. We have people that are, you know, do it for their work. Like all involved in the same, in the same thing. And, you know, a nice channel where, where people can ask questions and all that stuff. And, and you're right, you get, you get lots of different answers. Here's what works worked for me. Uh, here's what worked for. Five other people, right? And, uh, sometimes it's gonna be the same answer. You know, like sometimes it's all just everybody's saying, yes, that thing is, that thing is good, that solution is the right one. And sometimes it's, you know, most times in tech or career or whatever, there's not one right answer. And, um, the, the more, the more you can get, uh, you know, there's diminishing returns, I suppose, you know, if you ask a question on Twitter just for everybody to answer. The, the results may vary, right. You know, uh, but, but that's, that's the value of having, you know, a, a smaller group or a smaller community where you do know people and you know their histories and all that stuff. Um, it's, it's really good.

Caitlin: 32:41

Yeah. And getting to know those people over time too, so you can kind of understand. Um, It gives you a little bit more context, uh, for where they're coming from as opposed to like, you know, going on Stack Overflow is not the same as going to like a VC group and asking a question. Um, it's a lot more, um, of a personalized experience. So, yeah, I, I think it's finding those communities, um, can really help you to, to develop that kind of a, a rapport.

Dan: 33:12

Yeah. And the, the over time aspect of it I think is, is one of the big, is one of the big. Pieces of this, right? And, and this is true even with, uh, single mentor, you know, mentee relationship, is that I think the value of it will increase over time, right? Uh, because you both know more about each other. Um, and the same with groups and things like that. I, and I think this is probably a good value of, uh, collab lab too, right? Is is it's, it's not just a one time thing or, or random groups. I mean, I suppose it. I don't know. I don't know how they choose, you know who the groups are, but the groups are small. Right? And then it's the same group for eight, eight weeks. Is that what it is?

Caitlin: 33:48

Yeah, it's eight weeks. Yep.

Dan: 33:49

right. Yeah. And so you, you end up learning the same thing, uh, the same kinds of things about the people in the group over, or I would imagine, anyway. I've not, I've never done it. But it seems like that that would be a value of that, of that kind of group too. Um, is over time, you know, you, you develop those connections and the, the, the answers become more specific, you know, uh, and things like that. Um, Yeah. I, I

Caitlin: 34:12

with that.

Dan: 34:13

yeah. Yeah. I, I, I actually like speaking of collab lab, I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more just about, specifically about the experience, um, as a mentor, cuz you were a mentor. How many times have you

Caitlin: 34:24

I've mentored. Yeah, so I've mentored, um, a few times in a few different ways. So there's. Two main ways that I've mentored, um, as a project mentor, which is, uh, what you're describing where there's eight weeks and you're paired with a small team. Um, we also have, um, mentors that work with our, um, career lab program. Um, and so that is short, a shorter, um, period of time and more focused on helping someone to develop, um, either their mock interview or their job interview skills, um, or their LinkedIn, um, and things like that. Um, And so those are pretty different types of, uh, relationships there. The, the career lab is a shorter term, uh, relationship with a more focused goal of, you know, developing this one part of someone's, um, job hunting package. Um,

Dan: 35:17

just, is that one on one or?

Caitlin: 35:19

Yeah. Yeah. So, so there is, there's kind of a group, there's a cohort that goes through career lab. Um, and then, uh, each person is paired with a few different mentors to help them with a few different pieces of their, um, job hunting package. So they might be paired with one person for a mock, uh, behavioral interview, another for a mock technical interview, and another for reviewing their LinkedIn, uh, materials, which again, like you're getting different. They're focusing on different things, but you're still getting three different people's perspectives and they might have different advice to give you. Um, so it's, it's beneficial in that way. Um, and then, so the other, uh, type of, uh, mentorship, uh, that I've gotten to take part in is the project mentor. Um, and that too, uh, we have four collabs, four developers, and then three mentors that are paired that are, um, Grouped with them. Um, and so again, you're getting to benefit from multiple people's experiences and getting to kind of distill that information into what works for you. Um, and that is, uh, over eight weeks. So you've got a little bit of time to develop re relationships with them. Um, you can interact with them in a group setting with the rest of your team. Um, sometimes we'll have office hours so you can kind of talk one-on-one or ask questions. Um, and so I, I, I value both types of, uh, relationships, but. It is really nice to get to see someone over time. Um, you know, thinking from the perspective of a mentor. They, they wanna help you, they wanna see you growing, so it's kind of nice to have a longer term relationship and get to see, um, how you're growing and developing. Um, you know, hopefully from the benefit of their advice.

Dan: 37:03

It sounds really awesome. It sounds really valuable from both sides. Like it sounds valuable as a, as a mentee, somebody learning, you know, but also, I mean, I mean, maybe you could speak to this, but it sounds like very valuable, uh, as a, as a mentor, um, to, I don't know, to, to learn from other people and, and practice this kind of thing. Um, It just seems like a cool project, so

Caitlin: 37:22

Yeah, totally. I think it's good to keep in mind for mentees too, that you know, like what is the benefit to my mentor for this? It's probably they, they feel good about helping you and they wanna see you develop. And so, uh, one thing you can do to be a good mentee is to demonstrate that, like show them, Hey, I followed up on this advice and, and it really worked for me. Or, you know, I followed up on your advice and I'm still struggling with it. Maybe we can follow up. Um, thinking about that as a mentee can help you to develop even better relationships with your mentor.

Bekah: 37:55

I love that. I don't think I've ever heard that advice given before, but I think that's a really great way to look at it. Um, one of the challenges that I see in mentor-mentee relationships sometimes is that I. The mentee becomes too dependent on the mentor. And so rather than spending that, spending extra time, it's just kind of like the knee jerk reaction to like, I'm stuck, I've gotta ask my mentor. And then just that continued behavior, um, which makes it hard for them to grow, right? Like to separate themselves from that relationship. And I think it's also challenging as a mentor. To identify that and to kind of like guide them in the right direction when you see that happening. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that or advice, but I, I think that that gets a little tricky.

Caitlin: 38:42

Yeah, for sure. Um, and I, I can relate as someone who doesn't, you know, sometimes hasn't always had confidence and just wants to ask someone for help, um, I think that's a really natural thing. Um, As a mentor, something that you can do for that is maybe leaning more towards coaching than mentoring. Um, so mentoring is generally when you're giving someone advice based on your own experience, um, and, and just kind of letting them use that to help solve their problems. Uh, whereas coaching can sometimes be differentiated where. It's a little bit closer to teaching where you're asking questions to help someone come to their own conclusions. Um, and so, you know, if someone's asking you like, how do I solve this problem? Instead of just being like, well, this is what I did in the past. You could lean more towards asking questions like, well, uh, what kind of documentation do we think we should look for? Or, you know, like, what, um, What are some keywords we can search for online to help us find a problem? Is there a stack trace we can use to, you know, start from there and, and follow up? So, um, asking questions is a really good way to help kind of take off some of those training wheels and help someone to start to find their own answers to the questions so that they're able to kind of exercise those skills even when you're not there.

Dan: 40:05

I agree. I, I was just gonna say, I, I love that advice and you know, it's like even, um, From a parenting perspective, right? I have, you know, young kids and it's, it's the same kind of thing. It's, they asks the same question over and over again, you know, and, um, trying to pro provide for them, uh, the tools to figure the answer out themselves, uh, although more complicated and takes a little more effort, uh, you know, in the initial stages, um, can yeah. Pay a lot of dividends, uh, in the end. So it just made me think, yeah. Ben, you know, you know where to find out what's for dinner. We, we write it down on the fridge. Go, go look at it. Don't yell at me from the couch. What's for dinner?

Caitlin: 40:47

Yeah, I'm sure as a parent you have those skills down pat. Like if you're dealing with someone who has, you know, has learned the life skills, it's way easy to just point them towards just Google it.

Dan: 41:00

Right. How would you find that information out

Bekah: 41:02

ask Alexa. I need someone to check my math homework. Alexa will check your math homework. Um, oh wait, I, I had an another question that I don't know. I feel like this is a tricky topic too. Um, we see a lot of people in job situations who are forced to mentor, like, You are a senior developer, you must mentor this junior developer because that's what senior developers have to do. And I think, I think that mentorship is a skill that needs to be developed, and some people are better at it than other people. And I don't know that I necessarily agree with the idea that. Everybody should be a mentor. Like we all have our strengths and weaknesses, things that bring us joy and energy. And so I don't know what your thoughts are on that and I feel like I kind of put you on the spot here a little bit with that question. Um, but I think that it's good to kind of have this conversation since it's definitely something that we've heard over and over at Virtual Coffee.

Caitlin: 42:09

Yeah, for sure. I totally agree that. It's not a great starting point. If someone is feeling forced into a relationship with someone, that other person is often probably gonna feel like a burden, like they're not wanted and, and not really feel comfortable seeking out mentorship. Um, I, I think it is a complicated issue. Um, I totally agree that there are skills that you need to learn to be a good mentor. Um, and I think that, It's good for there to be an expectation that more experienced people on a team should be mentoring, um, less experienced people. But I think that really. This is a, a, a kind of lofty goal, but as an industry, we need to really value those skills that are important for mentoring. If we think that a senior developer should be mentoring, then we should be valuing the skills that help them to be a good mentor. And those should be important for someone to be demonstrating before they're getting those promotions where they're going to have to serve as a mentor to someone. So, you know, valuing those collaborative skills, um, you know, being able to, um, see someone. Having an ability to teach other people if they're not demonstrating it, their manager should be helping them to develop those skills before they get to the point of being the like person forced into mentorship. Um, so that's, I mean, that's kind of like easier said than done. Um, if someone is finding themself in a position of being forced to mentor, um, there's lots of great. Resources out there where you can learn those skills because it is, it, it is a skill that can be learned, um, you know, if you're going to like lead dev or something like that. And, um, really prioritizing those skills because it's, if you want to have a functioning team, you need to have people who are continuing to grow. And so it is, um, kind of important for managers and other people like that to. To put their money where their mouth is and value, um, those skills. And if someone isn't demonstrating it to like invest in teaching them skills.

Bekah: 44:11

I think that's super important and something that's overlooked. I don't know why it's so overlooked. I think it's like similar to that idea where people just kind of max out and they throw 'em as a manager, like, okay, you've reached a skill level, now you're a manager. And that, that's a different skill set and I, I think it just needs to be recognized that. Hey, like people are good at different things. We just need to make sure that if this is the path that we're sending them on, that we equip them to do that. And I don't think it should be an expectation that every senior plus developer knows how to mentor. Um, and in fact, like some of them were not mentored in. Anyway, uh, there have definitely been people who have had those experiences, which makes it even more challenging for them to learn and grow. And also, like, you gotta evaluate, is this, is this the best person to mentor? Because that idea that you talked about before in peer-to-peer mentoring, I think that, you know that you can, it, I think it's possible to have a junior developer mentor, another junior developer. It's just about like, Looking at those skill sets, looking at the communication skills and the collaboration and does this make sense? And, you know, then maybe providing some upper level support if there are questions. But I, I think that it does come down to like evaluating that, that side of things.

Caitlin: 45:38

Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah, it exactly like you said, it's sometimes people. People shouldn't be a manager or shouldn't be a mentor. Um, or maybe not that they shouldn't be, but they're not ready yet. Uh, and need to be prepared for that kind of, um, shift cuz it's totally different position than what they have been doing before, what they've been evaluated on before. And you can't just say, oh well, like this person's good at juggling, so let's go make them a lion tamer. Like that doesn't make any sense. Um, you need to evaluate the skills needed to do a job. Yeah.

Bekah: 46:12

Okay. Before we go, Caitlyn, I've got one last question for you. I'm just trying to pick what is the right one. We'll end on a positive note cuz my other question was a little bit negative. Um, uh, what are some tips or, uh, some bits of advice that you have for mentors to be able to help their mentees kind of level up setting, whether that's setting career goals, learning something new, or landing that first job.

Caitlin: 46:44

Ooh, good question. Um, so I think two things I'll say. One is that, um, if you're a mentor, really I. Try to put a lot of energy into listening to the mentee before you're jumping in and like giving them advice. Make sure you're listening to the problems that they're actually wanting to solve, um, and not just assuming that they want to do the exact same thing that you've done. Uh, because I think we all have experience, uh, giving or receiving unwanted advice, and it's not, you know, it, it's not really helpful to anyone. So making sure that you are understanding what kind of advice someone wants, um, before you. Jump into providing feedback. The other thing I'll say is that, um, again, try not to think of mentorship as this huge thing, like this huge responsibility of like a huge commitment. Um, it can be a lot more manageable if you break it down. You can, you can really help someone. Um, By, you know, thinking, identifying a small problem that they're having and giving them advice to solve that problem, um, can be just as beneficial as, as finding a big problem and, and helping them work through it, like whatever your capacity is. Finding ways of helping people, I think is, um, Just start there. And, um, yeah, whether it's mentorship or sponsorship as well, you can also, um, be really helpful in like, providing opportunities for people. Um, or, you know, like opening a door for someone. Um, try not to think of it as a huge undertaking. Try and just start with baby steps because that's, uh, A more approachable way of, um, getting into mentoring and it's, it's really gonna help someone. If you're anything is better than nothing, well usually, uh, any giving, giving help, uh, whether small or large, uh, is, is, uh, gonna help benefit someone, but be mindful about it.

Bekah: 48:50

I am glad I, I chose that question cuz that was a really good way to, uh, end the episode. You did a really good job of answering that question and sharing some things to think about. So thanks Caitlyn so much for being here with us today and talking about mentorship. We're happy to have you on the podcast.

Caitlin: 49:05

Thanks for having me.

Dan: 49:06

Thanks, Caitlin. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Virtual Coffee Podcast. This episode was produced by Dan Ott and Bekah Hawrot Weigel, and edited by Ashley Mulder. If you have questions or comments, you can hit us up on Twitter @VirtualCoffeeIO or email us at podcast@virtualcoffee.io. You can find the show notes, sign up for the newsletter, buy some VC merch, and check out all of our other resources on our website, virtualcoffee.io. If you're interested in sponsoring virtual Coffee, you can find out more information on our website at virtualcoffee.io/sponsorship. Please subscribe to our podcast and be sure to leave us a review. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next week.

The Virtual Coffee Podcast is produced by Dan Ott and Bekah Hawrot Weigel and edited by Dan Ott.