Jessica Wilkins - Using Open Source to Create Connections

Show Notes:

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Transcript:

Bekah: 00:06

Hello and welcome to season 9 episode 4 of the Virtual Coffee podcast. We're grateful to be sponsored by Level Up Financial Planning, who understands the importance of finding balance between having an awesome life today and being confident and excited about your future possibilities. If you want to take your financial confidence to the next level, check out levelupfinancialplanning.com and you can get that link in our show notes. I'm Bekah and this is a podcast that features members of the very incredible Virtual Coffee community. Virtual Coffee is an intimate community of people at all stages of their tech journey and they're here to share their stories and what they've learned. And this season we're talking All about open source and Hacktoberfest. Here with me today is my co host, Dan.

Dan: 00:57

Yo, what up? How's it going?

Bekah: 01:03

Good.

Dan: 01:06

Excellent. I'm glad to hear it.

Bekah: 01:11

It's going fantastic. How's it going with you?

Dan: 01:14

it's, it's going great. And part of the reason is because we have an awesome episode here for everybody. That was a pretty dope segue, right? I feel like, I feel like I'm starting to get, I'm starting to learn, learn, you know, the, the segue

Bekah: 01:29

from me and my amazing

Dan: 01:31

Yeah. No, Bekah is like master of segues. And I always try to go from one topic to another and just totally crash. Like my brain is just like, Nope, those two things aren't related. You can't make a sentence like that. But Bekah is always really good at it. So. I'm trying

Bekah: 01:44

One of my favorite podcasts. They have, there are two hosts on there. Um, and one is very good at segues and he's also the one that's like in charge of all of the booking of guests and creating the notes and that sort of thing. So I really like channel my John August energy to form those segues.

Dan: 02:05

Nice. Well, you do a good job. I'm getting there. Uh, all I can do is try my best. So, uh, anyway, right. Today's episode is we are joined again this season by Jessica Wilkins, this time on her own. And she's here to talk about how you can use open source to create connections and expand your network. And there's the sound machine. I, uh, somebody that's listening. That, you know, lives near Bekah. Please, I will pay you 100 to break into her house and just, just take all of those buttons off of that thing.

Bekah: 02:45

No, no.

Dan: 02:46

Yes.

Bekah: 02:49

I thought that I had a

Dan: 02:51

she's like looking at it and

Bekah: 02:53

I was looking for the booing sound effect.

Dan: 02:55

Well, let's not look too hard for that one. I don't think

Bekah: 02:57

Okay, yeah, sorry.

Dan: 02:59

I don't think that's really a good feature for my life. Is you having a

Bekah: 03:02

It's also not a good feature for Jessica, who does an absolutely excellent job talking about open source and giving lots of tips as a maintainer, as a contributor, and helping us all along this process of Hacktoberfest.

Dan: 03:18

Yeah, it's, it's always, I mean, Jessica's awesome. And, um, she has gotten so much experience and exposure to open source, um, especially now with her job at FreeCodeCamp. Um, she does a lot of, you know, a lot of this kind of stuff already. And so, uh, it was, it was. Just very excellent to hear her insights on this, uh, possibly overlooked, you know, benefit of contributing to open source is the way that it can expand your network in different ways. And again, not just like by making pull requests and impressing everybody, you know, um, there's a lot of different ways that it can help. So, it's cool.

Bekah: 03:52

Yeah, it was great. And so we're going to start this episode of the podcast. Like we start every Virtual Coffee, we'll introduce ourselves with our name, where we're from, what we do, and a Hacktoberfest check in question. We hope you enjoy this episode. Our question of the day is, How have you last contributed to an open source community? My name is Bekah. I am the developer experience lead at OpenSauce from small town in Ohio. And the last way I contributed to the community was by providing mentorship to an early career contributor.

Dan: 04:43

Nice. Uh, I'm Dan. I am a developer, uh, extraordinaire, I suppose. Uh, yeah,

Bekah: 04:51

go with that every time. I feel like that's the right title for you.

Dan: 04:55

I will. Um...

Bekah: 04:57

Business cards. I'm sending them to you for your birthday.

Dan: 05:00

What was the question the last time I contributed to...

Bekah: 05:04

Community. So like in the way that you've contributed to an open source community.

Dan: 05:08

well, I suppose I have, it's not live yet, but you know, we're doing Hacktoberfest this year. So, um, I am very close to releasing, you know, the, the new version of our Hacktoberfest initiative site. So, uh, when you listen to this, it will be live. So we'll say in the future to the future listeners, uh, that will be my most recent contribution, I guess.

Bekah: 05:29

I mean, it's a contribution. I didn't say it had to be live.

Dan: 05:32

Right, right. Well, when people listen to it, it'll be live, so, you know. Go ahead, Jessica.

Jessica: 05:39

Cool, cool, cool. Uh, yeah. So I am Jessica Wilkins and I am working full time for FreeCodeCamp, the curriculum development team. We've got some awesome stuff in the pipeline coming up. I'm excited to share that when that becomes live. Um, so stay tuned for that. But, uh, but yeah, uh, last, I guess. Contribution or participation within open source community, uh, besides Free Code Camp, uh, was actually with, uh, Josh's, uh, Josh Goldberg has a few, uh, open source projects and he had posted in Virtual Coffee, like looking for contributions. And I was like, Oh, this looks cool. And so I started getting involved more with that. Um, so I'm trying to get more involved with just open source in general, um, and just finding cool new projects, but yeah. Bekah.

Bekah: 06:39

which was like really fun. I definitely asked the most questions, uh, but it was really great. So there's a repository that I'll include if anybody is interested in checking that out because I don't know, it was a lot of fun, and learning how to create an npm package, and the things that went into that. Josh is just always so invested in giving back to the community. Um, actually, the TypeScript documentary, I think, came out this week, and

Jessica: 07:06

Yeah, yeah,

Bekah: 07:07

did that. So like, hey, we've got a legit movie star here now. We're

Jessica: 07:12

yeah. Right? Yeah, I haven't seen it yet, but I'm excited to watch that, so.

Bekah: 07:17

Yes, that's what I'm gonna do for fun this weekend. All right, so let's, let's go ahead and get started today. So again, this season is all about open source and we're happy to have Jessica back with us again. So she was on earlier in the season where we talked about, um, working in public. And now today she's going to talk a little bit about, um, building connections in open source. So, do you want to get us started with what you think is the most important thing folks should consider as they get involved in open source?

Jessica: 07:54

Yeah. Yeah. The, the, the reason why I wanted to be involved with this discussion is because like, there's so much talk about open source, particularly around this time of year, because it's Hacktoberfest and I get it. But I think a lot of people, they get, they feel like it's a very daunting task to get involved with open source and to get started, particularly if they're more early career. They're like, which projects should I contribute to? How should I get started? Like, how often should I be contributing? And there's just a lot of questions floating around. And I think that one of the benefits of open source, not only just growing your skillset and learning new technologies, but just meeting people along the way. And I think that a lot of people, uh, should focus more on just like building the connections with different people within the industry. There's so many cool projects. And I think a lot of times people just look at like. The super, super big projects like React and Node and Express and stuff like that. Uh, but there's a lot of smaller projects, um, created by solar developers or, uh, just a couple of, you know, like a small team and stuff like that. And they're just trying to get it off the ground and want to build out their community. And that's a great opportunity to join their discord or join their Slack group and just start jumping in and the conversation and just building relationships from there. And I, I'm just a firm believer. And when you're growing your career, uh, to just build relationships along the way. Um, and I think that's just going to further your career. Um, but just trying to do it solo there. So that's why I'm really excited about, uh, open source and the possibilities of just meeting new, cool people along the way. So,

Bekah: 09:21

Yeah, for sure. That's, I have a blog post coming out, um, next week, so it'll be out I think by the time this is released. Um, and it's all about, like, going above and beyond, uh, the very basic lowest level that you can do at Hacktoberfest, right? Like, um, there's an easy way. to get your four pull requests in, but what does that do for your credibility? Um, and, and credibility is a topic on its own, but like I think that as part of that building those connections, meeting new people, that becomes one of the most important things in your toolbox as an open source developer. Like, how have you interacted with, communicated with other people, and how have you built those connections? And I I feel like there's not enough emphasis that is on that as we move into like these big events around open source. Open source is amazing, you know, like it can really change your career. But you have to do it in a meaningful and deliberate way. So how do you think that you get started on that process of creating meaningful contributions that lead to those connections?

Jessica: 10:43

I think that's a great question and I think the best place to start is if you find a really cool project and you're looking at their code base and you're like, I don't really know how to get started or you're looking at their issues list and you're like, I'm not really sure where to get started, or my skills are not quite matched quite yet, but if you really like that product there, or the website, or if it's a game, or something like that, try to see if they have a Discord channel. And a lot of these projects will have some other way to communicate, maybe it's GitHub Discussions, or a Discord channel, or Slack, or Forum, or... Or whatever. There's some other way to connect with the community. And I would start there. I would join in that community, introduce yourself, and then just kind of start to see what conversations are happening over there. And some Discord communities have a whole bunch of channels that you can participate in. Some just have a couple there. But just start to slowly, maturely... Uh, you know, participate in the conversations there and you don't need to be super, super technical like people think like, Oh, I gotta be an expert in this. It's like, no, you don't need to be an expert in all that. You just, if you really enjoy the project and you just want to get involved, just start, you know, asking some questions or participating in existing discussions there. Um, and just starting to share your story and listen to other people's story. Uh, that's a great way to get connected. That's not. you know, code specific. And then usually what ends up happening is people will start talking about, uh, you know, changes they want to make to the product there or service or whatever the project is. And they'll say, Oh, maybe we should think about this feature, or maybe we should add translations, or maybe we should do, you know, XYZ. And then you're already involved in that conversation. You're like, Oh yeah, actually my skillset is in this place. And I would love to be involved with that. And that can be another way in, um, and start contributing that way. Um, or also just saying, Hey, I've tested out your, your project, but I had some questions about this, or I found this a little bit confusing. I was wondering if I can get help with that and just having that outside perspective, um, new to that project. I can say, Oh yeah, I didn't realize that part was confusing. We should, we should fix that. Or we should, you know, update that or whatever the situation is. And so that would be my suggestion of just getting started with a community. Um, just joining their discord or Slack group. Um, and start participating in the conversations. Because there's a lot going on in there. I mean, I, I belong to quite a few groups there. And there's always tons of conversations to kind of jump in there. And you don't have to feel like you have to spend like eight hours a day on Discord. But just like, you know, jump in there and kind of see what, what conversations interest you and just kind of go from there. Bekah.

Dan: 13:25

interest and you show, um, good intent, you know, uh, that you are going to be welcomed in, in most... Community's most open source projects, especially, and, um, a willingness to help, you know, things like that. I think that if you can display that sort of thing, that you're going to find some, you can find some help providing help. That sentence was confusing, but you know, uh, if you don't know exactly where to start, I think you'll find, I think you'll find people willing to help you get started. Um, and because it's, uh, honestly good for projects too to have people that, you know, are engaged and especially if you know you can point them in the right direction, you know, uh, and they're not just like running around on their own, um, that become valuable, you know, contributors. So I think that's really, really good advice.

Bekah: 14:08

Yeah, and I think like as part of that, like one of the things that we're doing at Virtual Coffee is, uh, right now we have our PrepTember challenge. And there's a repository that members are adding themselves to and maintainers are adding themselves to. And there's an expectation of the level of contributor there. And so most of those are open to folks who are new to contributing that are members of Virtual Coffee, right? And so The idea is like we can provide support and help for those people. And I started maintaining a list at open source too, to say like, uh, Jessica, your free code camp developer quiz site is on there along with some of the repositories that I maintain. Um, and some other ones as well, but I think that if you are brand new to contributing, it's. You can, there are definitely, there are, I think, at least four repositories that I know of, you can get four contributions, four PRs. just by following the directions, right? Like they're there for folks to be able to contribute to in a way that works for them, to help them practice, um, forking, cloning, committing, and submitting PRs. And so I think that it's also useful to like look at the level that you're comfortable with and then build from there. So if you've never done Hacktoberfest before, then maybe start small with your first PR. But if you can find a repository or an organization that allows you to build within their ecosystem, I find that it's easier to level up because you don't have to review a readme, a contributing guide, um, and go through, relearn all of the rules again. Um, and that's, I think, part of the... Roadblock for a lot of folks and why it can take so long. Um, finding the issue, but also like learning how to contribute to the repository. And I think that like by staying in the same ecosystem, if possible, so like, um, for example, like if you look at the free CodeCamp repositories that opt into Hacktoberfest, like they link to the same contributing guide, right? So you know how to contribute to free CodeCamp. So you don't have to go to a new contributing guide and relearn what is free CodeCamp. the expectations are. Um, so it allows you to grow at a faster pace. And so, I don't know, like this is maybe a different take for me personally for Hacktoberfest because, um, I've never really thought this before. I don't know. It's just like, I didn't have the knowledge to think about it before. If you stay in the same ecosystem, it's going to be easier to get those four PRs, but also to grow your skill set and to enrich those conversations and collaborations as well.

Jessica: 17:09

Yeah, absolutely. And then also too, you'll, you'll get more comfortable with the ecosystem, with the code base, and then you can start to tackle some more of those, you know, challenging issues because you have more context, um, and familiarity. And you can say, okay, I started off with these smaller issues, but now I feel a little more comfortable, uh, to tackle some issues. Cause there's, uh, I feel like a lot of projects, they have a list of help wanted issues that have been hanging around for a while. And a lot of reason why that's been hanging around is just because it needs somebody that a little more context and familiarity. Uh, some of those you could jump right in being brand new, but then some of those you kind of have to be a little bit more familiar, uh, with the project and the code base. to kind of fully contribute there and tackle those issues. So if you've been sticking around for a little bit, then you're going to be more familiar and you're going to say, no, I can tackle one of these, uh, issues there.

Bekah: 17:56

Yeah, I mean you can you can deepen those relationships as well, right? And I think that's one of the big things too, uh that we see There's a couple of different things that I think that uh newer contributors have to navigate Um, and one of those things is fear, right? Like maybe that's the very first thing like You're afraid to contribute because you're not sure that you're gonna get it right, or that you're gonna say the things right, like, I don't know how many times when I was a very new developer that my husband is also a developer. I would ask him like, did I ask this question properly? Because I don't want to appear like I don't know what I'm talking about, right? Um, and, and that's like a legit fear. You don't want to, especially, I think it's especially true for career changers because many of us come from being well versed in our previous field or experts in a previous field. And then, We are brand new at something. And so there's this mindset shift that needs to happen. And like, you don't have to be an expert in a new field because you're new to this field. Um, at least that's something that I certainly faced, um, and anxieties that came around that. So how do you. navigate those fears coming in as a new contributor that are blocking you from finding those deeper relationships or those collaborations that are going to be really meaningful in your career.

Jessica: 19:27

Yeah, I could so relate to this because the first few open source projects, even on my first job, uh, like I was so afraid to just ask questions cause I was like, I don't know, does this sound dumb? Does this make me sound like I don't know what I'm talking about? I'm a career changer. I came from the music industry and I made it pretty far in that industry. And so to switch into software and like start all over from the beginning was intimidating. Um, and so one of the things I would suggest is when you're looking at different projects, really kind of study, uh, the culture and environment. And there's some open source projects where maybe the tech is really cool, but the environment is... Not so cool. Um, and so if, if you find one of those situations that you really want to think twice, like, okay, do I want to participate in this? Um, or are they just going to talk down to me and be gatekeepy and stuff like that? And it's unfortunate that there are projects out there like that, uh, but they do exist. And so I would just study the community and study the discords and also study like old pull requests or current like open pull requests and see how maintainers are talking to other contributors. And are, do they seem helpful? Do they seem like it's a healthy environment? Or are they just... Seem like they're not so nice people. And I've seen both sides of that where it's like, okay, y'all have some issues. I'm gonna not participate in your project. I'm gonna go over here. Um, and so that would be my first step is just kind of, you know, check the vibe in the room and so to speak and see like if it's a healthy environment. And then, uh, you know, also if you are a part of other tech communities, um, and you have that, uh. community around you, like Virtual Coffee that you could say, Hey, I'm interested in asking this type of question in this repository, or I'm having trouble phrasing this, this is what I want to ask. I've done that before in multiple communities where it's like, okay, this is what I want to try to convey, but I'm not really sure the correct, you know, technical jargon and people will jump in and be like, Oh yeah, you can reward it this way. Or, Oh, you really want to ask about this. And it's like, Oh, okay, cool. Um, and so having a community in your, your corner, And Uh, can definitely help you out and there's, there's plenty of great communities, like obviously the Virtual Coffee community and free cookie app and whatnot, where you can just ask questions and, and people aren't going to judge you and be like, well, why did you ask that question? That was dumb. And so, uh, but I, I can totally relate where it's sometimes it's tough to kind of put yourself out there. You're not really sure what the reception is going to be there.

Dan: 21:41

Yeah, that's a big part of what we, you know, obviously are trying to do at Hacktoberfest, too. Like, I know I keep talking about this, but you know, the, the like, trying to get through some of those social, you know, issues, right, that people have. Um, cause it can be hard. I, I still remember being, you know, intimidated, right? I remember being, uh, I don't know, having a tough time trying to figure out what I was supposed to do, you know. And I had been a developer for a long time before I was ever, uh, you know, ever contributed to anything open source. So, um, yeah. I agree with everything that you said.

Bekah: 22:13

Yeah. And, and beyond that, right? Like you have those anxieties and then you get started and you learn to ask those questions. And then I think that deepening those relationships requires a different approach, right? Um, and that might be going deeper into issues or going deeper into supporting the community. So what are your thoughts on like, you know, once you get past that fear and anxiety like, um, Maybe you've submitted your first pull request. Then where do you go from there?

Jessica: 22:48

Yeah, I think that, like, at that point, you really want to start looking at the needs of the community. Like, what are they trying to achieve? What are their values? Where do they want to go? Because every single community, they have some sort of end goal. And so, like, with FreeCodeCamp, we want to provide free programming education for all people, regardless of socioeconomic backgrounds there. And so, we have very clear goals and values that we want to achieve. And so, if you just understand... What is this project trying to achieve? I mean, there's some projects that are saying, like, look, I just built this really cool CLI tool, and I just want to keep building that out. Or I want to build an actual business around this or something like that. So just understanding, like, why does this project exist? Is it just like a cool small project that they're working on? Or they want to build it into something else? Or there's some sort of social good behind of it, behind it? And then... From there, you can see other areas where your unique skill sets can help with that. So if you're really strong in writing, for example, then writing, um, articles about that product and about that project and saying, Hey, I contributed to this project, or I've been working with this product. It's really cool. It does X, Y, Z, or, you know, working with their APIs and building something. from that. Um, I, I just listened to, uh, Brian Douglas's, uh, FreeCodeCamp podcast episode and I feel like literally his whole career was just him like building in public and like playing around with different technologies. And then people like saw his articles and stuff like that. And they're like, Hey, do you want a job here? Cause you're already using our technologies and stuff like that. Um, and so like, just. Showing that appreciation for that project through writing, or if you love creating YouTube content, like a number of people have been hired at FreeCodeCamp because they had separate YouTube channels and they were contributing a lot to FreeCodeCamp and, you know, uh, supporting a lot of what we were doing. And so Quincy's like, hey, do you want to Like work here, you know, cause you're already super involved. And so just finding like your unique skill set, whether it's writing or videos or giving talks or something like that. I mean, there's so much, there's so many tools out there, but it's hard to kind of get your name out there. If you have a new tool and you're trying to break through all the noise. And if you're going out there and giving talks about that particular tool, like I saw Danny Thompson just recently, um, I think he's like an app right ambassador or something, and I don't know if that's open source or not, but, uh, but like. Stuff like, oh, it is open source. Okay, cool. And so stuff like that where you're like talking about the product and like that gives more, you know, awareness and, and that, you know, helps with the underlying goals that that, that organization has there. So, yeah.

Bekah: 25:20

Um, yeah, uh, okay So one of the things I I have a cat now But you all can't see it if you're listening to the podcast, but it didn't it wanted to chill

Jessica: 25:28

cute cat. That looks like my mom's cat.

Bekah: 25:30

Thank you. I've got two of them. This is the, the larger one. No, this is a smaller one. This is the baby. Um, sorry. Um, I'm trying to go back. There was something that you said that I wanted to talk about. Oh, your skill set. So looking at your skill set, right? And I think this is one of the most undervalued thing of, uh, newer contributors especially. Like there's a desire to be able to prove yourself in doing something new. But many of us bring skill sets from other careers or experiences and we undervalue those things, right? And we have this particular idea about what it means to contribute to a project. Um, that, that also increases that idea But. I think, like, uh, my background is in English. I have a master's in English. I taught for 10 years, and that's been my most valuable skill in my career in tech. I wouldn't be in the job that I have now if I did not have that training. Um, I firmly believe that. And I think it took me a very long time to recognize that, and I just, like, kept trying to, like, work against it. Like, I'm going to leave this behind and do this new thing, and I'm only going to do these things that are not like the things that I did before, and I'm going to prove myself, right? Um, and it took that point, I don't know at what point I realized, like, hey, you know what? Maybe these skills that I have already developed are good and useful too. And I should lean into those skills. And I think that that's super useful for new contributors to realize, um, there are plenty of, um, open source projects out there that are looking for varied skills. And one of the biggest pain points of open source projects out there that I've talked to folks about is like, especially for solo maintainers. Um, is marketing their project or like talking about it, right? So like, can somebody write a blog post on this? Because I'm not good at writing. Or can someone create a video? Because I'm not good at speaking in front of a camera, right? Um, and there are, there are projects out there for Hacktoberfest that ask for those things. Like, hey, create a PR for a video you created or for a blog post or a tutorial or whatever. Um, and I, I think that it's useful To provide space for folks to lean in because there are so many different skill sets that we bring to tech that I think that we, again, maybe it's fear. That, like, this is not the thing that's needed, so I want to push this down and leave it behind, but actually, like, this is a strength that you should lean into and use to become a part of the community and just show, like, hey, I can bring something that's very, very useful there. So, um, are there, I'm sure, Jessica, like, you're a career changer, too. Like, your background is definitely not traditional, but, like, what skill set are you bringing in, and how can, We encourage more folks to develop their relationships and deepen them through bringing those diverse skill sets into their open source contributions.

Jessica: 28:58

Yeah, I think like one of the skills is just like public speaking in general because like it's funny because like with some musicians they love to, you know, do public speaking and talk about their projects that they're interested in and then some are just have an adverse reaction to it. And I remember like back in college, where we, one of the requirements for our music degree was that we had to be part of cheaper music groups that we had to go and present in the community and we had to actually present Talk to the community. And I was like, yeah, that's cool, let's go talk about it. But like, everybody else in my group was like, I don't want to say anything. I'm like, we gotta talk to them. We can't just like, show up and play, and then just like, leave, you know? We gotta like, talk about the pieces and stuff. And so, um, I just developed that skill, because like, literally no one else in my group wanted to do it. They just wanted to show up and play, and then just like, leave. And I was like, no, we gotta like, Say something, you know. And so, um, over time, there's certain skills that you just develop. And a lot of people, I hear them say like, oh, well, I was just in retail, or I was just in this. And it's like, well, you weren't just in that. Like, you learned valuable skills, no matter where you came from. And I think, People see this like disconnect between like tech and then their previous career and they kind of downplay their previous career and it's like no there's a lot of value there that you can bring and I know like Danny Thompson's talked a lot about like when you're writing resumes particularly like how can you talk about your previous experience in a meaningful way instead of trying to downplay it and so you could do the same thing with open source projects and say oh I have a lot of experience doing xyz. And whether it's writing or public speaking or creating video content and stuff like that, um, I would be happy to help out in those other areas because there's so many projects that they, the technology is really cool, but like no one really knows about them because it's just kind of hidden in the background because there's so many other competing products out there for our attention. And so if you have somebody that's really strong and, and, and promoting that, um, and has those skills to either writing or video or something else. Um, then you can utilize those skills and you become a very strong asset to that particular project and organization there.

Dan: 31:01

How would you suggest, like, if, if, uh, a project, if you saw a need that fit one of your, like, say, uh, making a video or like a loom or, you know, anything like that, but there wasn't like an open issue that said, I need a video, you know, you know what I mean? Like, um, how would you approach, like, if you had a really, like, you think it's a good idea for a project to help it, help them out in one of those ways, right? Um, what would, what would be your path forward for, for a project? Like, that you're not maintaining or you don't know the maintainer, you know, that kind of thing.

Jessica: 31:29

Yeah, yeah, I think there's a few different ways. I think, like, one, if you hop on, like, Twitter or something like that and you, you tag the person and be like, oh, yeah, you know, I'm working with this cool tool and I just made a video about it or something, or I just wrote a blog and then you could just add them or something like that. Or join in if they do have a discord or something and say like, Oh, look at the cool thing I just did. Um, and sometimes like they, they might not respond, but if you keep putting more content out there more often than not, people be like, Oh, Hey, okay. They're really interested in what we have to do. Uh, so most times I see it work out where people are just. The maintainers will respond back and they're like, wow, you're really interested in what we're trying to do here. Um, could you keep doing more of this? And you just never know where, where that's going to lead. Uh, but that's how I would approach it there is if I was like making videos, writing articles, then I would just like add the person there. Um, I wouldn't do it like every single day, you know, and start like spamming them. But like once in a while, like actually I just did this with a, uh, A book I was, uh, I was currently reading, uh, called Career Rehab by Taneika Tover. And I was just like, hey, I really love your, your book there. And, um, I was like, I really love this chapter and this chapter. And I just, like, tagged her in a, a Twitter post. She's like, oh, wow, okay. And then we just started a conversation from there. We, like, inter, first interacted through another Twitter space. And that's where I found out about her, her book. But... Um, a lot of people, it's always, like, if you show appreciation for their project and what they're doing and the value that they're putting out there, most people will respond back and be like, hey, thank you for noticing that, whether it's a podcast episode, if, like, or if it's a, you know, YouTube channel or Twitch stream or a project or whatever they're trying to get off of the ground, a lot of people are just appreciative that you're, like, you. Noticing them and appreciating them. Um, so kind of just like showing that and tagging them or reaching out. Um, and I know like, unfortunately Twitter makes it difficult. Cause like, if you're not, if they're not following you or something like that, then you have to get like verified or something like that. But there's other ways you can get in contact, like through LinkedIn and stuff like that. Um, and just reach out and be like, Hey, I really liked this project. And I, I, you've been creating some content around that. And I was wondering if you can take a look at it. Most of the time people will respond back and be like, oh cool, yeah, if you could do more of that or if you could get involved in this way.

Bekah: 33:37

Yeah.

Dan: 33:37

that.

Bekah: 33:38

I'll also say, like, add to that, you might, you might ask maintainers, like, what, what are your biggest challenges, right? Um, and that can be hard during Oktoberfest because I feel like it's just a challenging period, uh, for a lot of folks who are doing things. But I know that for projects that specifically are working with um, maybe first time contributors or early career contributors, um, there's a lot of effort that goes into that and like that's definitely something that I underestimated how much time it was going to take me to be able to work with. Um, early career contributors and kind of help them to understand like, here are best practices. This is how we go through the process of things. And then, like, also recognizing as part of that, like, hey, probably should cover this in the documentation, right? So, like, I don't have to have this reply and Jessica, like, one of your things that you've said. Multiple times and all of the Virtual Coffee things is like saved replies, right? And so finally I was like, I'm gonna create saved replies this Hacktoberfest. I want to go do it. And then the documentation that I was following from GitHub was not what my UI looked like. It was like, okay, how do I do this? And then, um, BDougie sent me a post from Rizal who was on the, formerly on the DevRel team at GitHub that showed me how to do it in a different way. And I will say, I'm proud of myself because I did raise an issue on GitHub and saying like, this doesn't work for me. Um, and then they were like, well, it works for me. So. We'll see how that turns out, because I was like, maybe we can have both, you know? Um, but the, the point was like, there's one repository that I have where I have the same reply over and over, right? And so even some of those things, like, hey, Like, maybe I can respond, maybe I can, um, maybe I can work with some early career developers. Maybe I can help them see, like, this is a best practice, like, when you are contributing in a Markdown file, these are some of the standards. Maybe they can create those issues that say, like, this is how you contribute in Markdown or whatever. And so, like, finding those pain points of the maintainers, um. Especially who are working really hard to support, uh, early career folks or early contributors to open source can be a really great way. And if you, if you have contributed to open source once, then you're ahead of a ton of people. So, uh, if you're feeling like I can't do this, I've only done it once. Hey, you're a step ahead. You for sure can do it. And so I wonder if you have tips for folks who are, who want to support, um, early career contributors. How can they help in that way?

Jessica: 36:40

Yeah. Yeah. I know that like maintaining, cause I maintain a few that are more like beginner friendly for early contributors there, and it is a lot of work there, but the benefit is definitely there. And seeing people like get their first pull request in, it's pretty cool. And they're like, Oh man, I got it. And I was like, okay, cool. Yeah. So it's, the reward is definitely there. Um, and I think just like. Um, adding more like blog posts and stuff like that and beginner friendly walkthrough videos on how to get started because I know there's already a lot of content out there, but I still see a lot of newer developers. They're like, okay, how do I get started? How do I, how do I do this? And, and so there's, there could never be too much like good content out there. And so if you're thinking like, oh, it's already been written before, I don't need to add my stuff in there. Like there's still people looking. For different takes. And, and you could also share your story about how you got started and if, when you're sharing like your story, then there there's that added level of like empathy where you could be like, Hey, I was a career changer too and I struggled with this, and then this is how I work through it. Then more people will start to kind of listen, like, Hey, that was me. Like, okay, let's, that, that can show that maybe I could do this too. And so, um, so don't be afraid to like write or, you know, create videos if, if you're thinking, oh, there already exists out there, but your particular take doesn't exist and so you can. Can show and tell your story and help so many other people and then they could turn around and help other people. And the cycle kind of just keeps going there. And so just writing some articles on how to best contribute to either your project or projects in general, and just sharing your particular take is, is really valuable there.

Bekah: 38:12

And you know, like as part of that, like we're constantly developing those relationships, right? And one of the things, I don't know, I was talking to somebody about this recently, but I remember Probably a couple years ago, someone in Virtual Coffee was like, okay, like, how can I help? Like, what are you struggling with? I was just like... I don't even know. And sometimes when you're Exactly.

Jessica: 38:38

with everything.

Bekah: 38:39

Sometimes when you're in the thick of it, it's like really hard to identify that thing. And so like going back to that idea of like, what is your skill set? Sometimes it's helpful for folks to be like, Hey, this is my skill set. Can I help you with this in some way? Oh yeah, I can definitely find a way for you to help in that way. So like, even if it's not an established path, if it's not an issue on a repository, sometimes if you pitch it, if you create an issue or a discussion, then the maintainer will be like, Oh yeah, for sure I could use that kind of help. And so, um, I think that. For a lot of maintainers, there's a lot of overwhelm that comes, especially like if you're opting into Hacktoberfest and there's tons and tons of PRs suddenly on your repository. Um, helping somebody with that and saying like, hey, I have a skill that I think that would help this project, that can be a really useful way to develop those relationships. And so, um, again, just like another way to throw out, like, I've got a skill set, I want to help. Is this useful to you? And with that, there's the caveat of like, create an issue or a discussion, don't create a PR, right? Like, you need to balance that experience because PRs require review, they require response, um, and If you're trying to develop that relationship, then you want to have that conversation before you say, like, the, I, I feel like, and maybe I'm wrong here, and so just add this in, but like, an issue or a discussion is essentially like a proposal for something. And when you create a PR, it's like, hey, I've got a solution, just take it, you know? Um, And so that kind of, I don't, it doesn't close the conversation, but it just like pushes it further than it needs to be sometimes if it's, if there's not an issue that the maintainer created.

Jessica: 40:38

Yeah, absolutely. And like, that kind of touches on like another way that you can start to build relationships and get involved is just by simply testing the product. Cause especially if it's like a beta release or just a brand new feature just came out, there's going to be some testing. And obviously the maintainers are gonna do their best to like test their work, but they're not going to, you know, Catch everything. And so, uh, another way that you can get involved is simply just testing something new that came out. And so like with FreeCodeCamp, we're releasing some new curriculums. Uh, we're, we're overhauling our new curriculum, uh, into all project base. And so, uh, when we released the responsive web design, uh, all project based, they were. You know, some issues there, um, and we did our best that we could to like, make sure it was, but nothing's like perfect, obviously, and so, like, you can go in, uh, especially as a beginner, like, you have that fresh perspective on, like, okay, the language is a little bit confusing here, or maybe we should break this step up into two different steps, um, and so that's another way that you could just jump in and, like, maintainers will love you for that if you're, like, creating issues and saying, hey, I found not only just like a bug, but like, This is really confusing as a beginner, because, you know, I haven't been an absolute beginner in a while, um, and so, like, I don't have that, that absolute beginner mindset always, and so I might write a step, but then someone else might be like, okay, that's a little confusing, and I'm not really sure if, like, or did you mean it like this, and so we're constantly, you know, You know, revising the curriculum there. And so if you know something's coming on the horizon there, uh, then you could just like jump in early and say, okay, I'm going to go through this new curricula, right? Go through this project and start testing things out and bring up issues. Like we had one contributor a few months back that was going through one of the new curriculums we released and, you know, found some issues there, but they were really valuable. We're like, oh yeah, we didn't really. You know, see it this way and stuff like that. Um, and so that's another way that you can start to build connections that way and just, you know, starting those new conversations of like, Oh, have you considered this? Or maybe you can look into this. Um, maintainers will, will love that type of perspective there.

Bekah: 42:40

I love that for sure. And I know, um, I, from Virtual Coffee, went through one of my open sauce workshops, uh, fairly recently, and there were some things that I had just, like, glossed over and hadn't realized, like, okay, well, some people are facing an issue here, right? And then she dove down into it and figured out, like, okay, like, why are we facing that issue? And then created an, created an issue and eventually a PR to make the instructions clearer for people. And I, I can't remember exactly what happened, but I know that like she was on a, I think a PC, and I was on a Mac, and maybe that had something to do with it or how the implementation, but like there are things, again, like It works on my machine, right? Like, it doesn't mean that it works on everybody's machine and making that inclusive for everybody is super helpful. So when you do come across issues like that, like that's, that's one of my favorite, um, PRs or issues that are created to be able to see what folks are working on there.

Jessica: 43:44

I, I like that. But it also, it kind of reminds me of like one other point of like being a moderator is another way that you can start to build connections, uh, that way. And, um, I know like Forum, uh, the one that powers, uh, uh, Dev 2 and like other, uh, uh, platforms and communities, like they have like a banner on the right hand side that's like, Hey, if you want to be a moderator, you know, read this and stuff like that. And so communities are looking for. additional help, um, in moderation. And so if you understand, like, the rules and kind of the environment of that community, you don't need to have a whole bunch of technical knowledge to be a moderator and to help answer, um, some questions about the, the community and, and maintainers will be super appreciative of that. Um, and so that's another way that you can get started, especially as a early career dev or even if you have, like, 30 years of experience. I mean, we have people coming to the Free Code Camp Forum that, Have like 20, 30 plus years, um, and they just want to hop on and just share their stories and help out wherever we turn them into moderators because they're like, hey, you're super helpful. You want to stick around a little while longer and, you know, have maybe a little bit more responsibility. And they're like, yeah, that's cool. So that's another way. If you're just like, I'm not sure if I can contribute in terms of Purely, like, technical wise, uh, but maybe just, like, joining, uh, the community and, like, seeing if there's ways you can get involved with being a moderator or even triaging issues. I know OpenSauce, um, has, like, a whole set on their documentation about how to be part of that triage team, um, and so those are other ways that you can start to get involved and work with other people and build those connections that way over the long term.

Dan: 45:22

Yeah. I think that's, uh, well, another piece of really great advice. Um, yeah, like joining, um, I don't know, leveling up your contribution to a community like that, you know, I mean, of course it doesn't just apply to open source stuff, but it can be a great way to, um, build those connections. And just like you said, people will appreciate it. Like the maintainers or organizers will appreciate it. Um, other members will appreciate it too, I think. And, um, speaking from like an organizer point of view. Moderator, like it's kind of like you said, like making somebody a moderator is like both sort of recognizes some of their contributions or their, their value to the community also maybe helps them stick around a little bit more, you know, um, you know, just like kind of try to, uh, get them to get people that like, you know, are interested to, you know, keep coming back, things like that. Right. Um, yeah. Yeah, I think that's, I think that's great advice. There's a lot of pluses for that. There's also, I think, once you start answering questions and things like that, like you said, um, you are just by default going to learn things, too. Whether you're a new developer or a, you know, an experienced developer, I think, you know, as soon as you start trying to answer questions and you want, if you want to do it right, you know, you have to, like, sometimes you're going to know and sometimes you're not going to know and you know, go start doing your research and figuring it out and then, you know, um... And I've learned a bunch of stuff like that, just like in the comment section, you know, me commenting in the comment section of an issue, right? Like somebody asked some question and, and, uh, you know, I, whatever, we started a conversation and then I realized I don't, I'm not sure where this is going either. And then, you know, we dig in and, you know, I don't know. It's a great way to, it's a great way to learn and contribute. Um, like being, being a moderator or different like roles in communities. Um, I think, I think it's great.

Bekah: 47:13

I am grateful for this podcast episode uh, thank you so much jessica for being here with us today and um walking through this because I think that like one of the hardest parts of hacktoberfest is for new contributors Learning how to deepen those relationships because when you're able to deepen those relationships you also Grow in your skill set in a much more Um, efficient way, but in a way that, like, makes an impact on open source, your career, and you personally, um, when you're able to feel, um, like you belong in that space. And I think that what you've done and what you've shared, there's a lot of ways for folks to find a space where they belong in open source and to do exactly that. So thank you so much for being here and sharing with us today.

Jessica: 48:06

Yeah, it's been super fun hanging out with you guys.

Dan: 48:10

All right, cool. Thanks, Jessica. We'll see you. Uh, we'll see you later. Cheers.

Jessica: 48:13

Cheers.

Dan: 48:16

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Virtual Coffee Podcast. This episode was produced by Dan Ott and Bekah Hawrot Weigel. If you have questions or comments, you can hit us up on Twitter @VirtualCoffeeIO or email us at podcast@virtualcoffee.io. You can find the show notes, sign up for the newsletter, buy some VC merch, and check out all of our other resources on our website, virtualcoffee.io. If you're interested in sponsoring virtual Coffee, you can find out more information on our website at virtualcoffee.io/sponsorship. Please subscribe to our podcast and be sure to leave us a review. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next week.

The Virtual Coffee Podcast is produced by Dan Ott and Bekah Hawrot Weigel and edited by Dan Ott.