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Julia Seidman - Embracing the Careen Over the Career

Season 6, Episode 6 | September 20, 2022

In today's episode, Dan and Bekah talk to Julia about learning how to learn as a Technical Writer, the importance of teaching as a tool for learning, and her approach to writing about new technologies.

Julia Seidman

Julia Seidman is a technical marketing consultant and developer in the Seattle area. She has 2 terrific kids and a wonderful partner, and her family cos-plays as a “normal” family.

Julia is a believer in the careen, rather than the career.

After studying anthropology and writing a senior thesis on the ethics of museum collections of human skeletal remains, she took the job she could get, which was fundraising for a hospital.

From there, she became a financial analyst and employee educator for 401(k) and pension plans. After that, she got a Master’s in Teaching, and taught high school English, ESL and Debate for most of a decade.

Now, she works as a freelance technical writer and software developer, specializing in technical content marketing.

Along the way, she has learned a lot about a lot of things, including the Python ecosystem.

Show Notes:

This week Bekah and Dan sat down with Julia Seidman, a technical marketing consultant and developer in the Seattle area, and talked about her work writing about different technologies, learning by teaching, and embracing the careen over the career. She talks about her career journey from studying anthropology to financial analysis to teaching high school English, ESL and Debate, before landing her current role as a technical writer.

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Transcript:

Bekah Hawrot Weigel:

Hello, and welcome to Season 6, Episode 6 of the Virtual Coffee Podcast. I'm Bekah. And this is a podcast that features members of the Virtual Coffee community. Virtual Coffee is an intimate group of developers at all stages of their coding journey. And they're here on this podcast, sharing their stories and what they've learned. Here -- and we're here to share it with you. Here with me-

Dan Ott:

You've said it [??].

Bekah:

-[laughs] is my cohost, Dan.

Dan:

Hey, Bekah. How's it going?

Bekah:

Hey. It's fantastic [chuckles].

Dan:

[Laughs] Yes. We are in a silly mood cuz we just finished recording with Julia Seidman. Developer, educator, she's independent consultant, and she's had really long and interesting career, couple different roles. And- and it was a really good time. It was a very silly time as well. So, we- we- we had a good time talking to Julia, as always.

Bekah:

We did. We had a- a deep dive into our intro question. So I think that we have set the record for the longest ever intro because we explored quite a few tangents.

Dan:

Yes. But we learned some things along the way, right [chuckles]?

Bekah:

We did. Some very- very interesting things about exploring different technologies as developer educator, and what that career path looks like.

Dan:

Mm-hmm. And also --

Bekah:

Also about rhodium. [Dan laughs] You gotta- you gotta listen the end of the episode, though. If you wanna-

Dan:

You did that [laughs].

Bekah:

-know about rhodium.

Dan:

Yeah. No. Julia has a- a really great outlook on pretty much everything, you know? She talks a lot about how education is important in her writing process. And- and she has this -- I don't know if it's a ethos or whatever, but [laughs] she says, "Embrace the careen over the career," right? And I, as another person who -- I never thought about it like that exactly. But, I very much appreciate that- that look in life. I think it's very healthy one too. So, yeah. I don't know. I -- it was- it was a good time, and it was fun. So, I -- this is -- I'm horrible at ending things. This is [Bekah laughs] -- I- I -- it hasn't gotten better.

Bekah:

I think that's probably my- my job to pick up with. We start every episode of the podcast like we start every Virtual Coffee. We introduce ourselves with our name, where we're from, what we do, and a random check-in question. And we hope that you enjoy this episode. Our intro question today is, if you could have an unlimited supply of one non-food thing for the rest of your life, what would it be? My name is Bekah. I am a technical community builder at a sm- it's not what I normally say [laughs].

Dan:

What?

Bekah:

I don't know. Hi-

Julia Seidman:

[Unintelligible].

Bekah:

-I'm Bekah

Dan:

It- it sounded good.

Bekah:

It -- but it was like -- I don't -- that's just not what I normally say. And then my brain was like, "What are you doing? This is not how we do this thing." Alright, brain --

Dan:

That's what my brain does every time, except that there's not a normal thing that it suppose to be doing.

Bekah:

Well, that's because you don't know what you do. You're very confused about --

Julia:

Same. Same.

Bekah:

Hi, I'm Bekah. I'm a technical community builder at DeepGram, from a small town in Ohio, and an unlimited supply of one not food thing for the rest of my life [silence] I -- this is just, I don't know where to go with this. I really like n-notebooks and pens, but that's two things. So that -- should it be, like, practical? And does it just automatically appear? Because like, I, for a long time, kept forgetting to buy light bulbs. And so we were in the dark all the time. So -- or like triple A batteries. I don't -- I'm just --

Julia:

Oh, that's a good one.

Bekah:

And non-food items. All I really wanted is-

Julia:

Always have double A's.

Bekah:

-non-food [laughs].

Julia:

I always have double A's. Never have triple A's.

Bekah:

Yeah, exactly. Or like that one time you need a D battery and I'm like, "What the?" No, I don't have a D battery. So I don't -- I --

Julia:

Or you wanna show your kid what happens when you look at nine volt and you don't have a nine volt.

Bekah:

[Laughs] Am I supposed-

Dan:

Yeah. True.

Bekah:

-to show my kid that?

Julia:

I don't know. I feel like it's a right of passage.

Dan:

Yeah. Seriously.

Bekah:

I don't even understand what that -- I've never heard of that.

Dan:

Go try it. See what happens.

Bekah:

I don't have a nine volt [all laugh].

Julia:

My dad was a science teacher. We do a lot of questionable things.

Bekah:

Dry ice is really fun. You can do -- my dad was a pharmacist. I remember, like, sometimes he would bring home dry ice. I don't know. Like, something shipped in it. I'm like, "This is the coolest thing ever." I'll just go with dry ice. I'm gonna have an unlimited supply of dry ice for the rest of my life [laughs]. I don't know what I'm gonna do with it. But that's what I'm gonna go with [Bekah and Julia laugh].

Dan:

Alright. Well, you'll have lots of ... well, steam or, well, that's not really steam, is it? It's the --

Julia:

It -- the- the-

Dan:

Steam?

Julia:

-chemical process is called sublimation.

Dan:

Yeah, but what is the thing called? The --

Julia:

It's- it's --

Dan:

Double mates?

Julia:

-steam. It's when a solid [unintelligible].

Dan:

It's steam. Okay. I-it's steam. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Julia:

Yeah.

Dan:

All right. Cool. Hi [laughs], I am Dan. I do stuff. I- I am a independent, computer person, developer guy. Yeah, from Cleveland. And, yeah. I think, time is what I'm going with. That would be the thing that I have at the moment [unintelligible].

Bekah:

Oh, that's not fair. That's cheating [Bekah and Julia laughs] [unintelligible] all.

Dan:

Listen, it's not food. That's the only -- that was the only rule. All right, fine.

Julia:

That's time. Time. I mean, time- time is infinite, Dan [Bekah laughs].

Dan:

Hmm. But I don't have an infinite supply of it.

Bekah:

Well --

Dan:

See?

Bekah:

You want free time. That's what you're asking for.

Dan:

I want more time.

Julia:

You wanna loop forever?

Dan:

[Laughs] No.

Bekah:

I would hate loop forever.

Dan:

No, that doesn't sound good either. Yeah, no, no, no. Alright, fine. How about ... can I sell the thing? Is it --

Julia:

Sure.

Dan:

Can I do ... I mean --

Bekah:

No drugs. You can't sell drugs.

Dan:

Can I do-

Bekah:

Nothing illegal.

Dan:

-money? Nothing illegal? What is this? You're putting all these rules in that didn't exist [chuckles].

Bekah:

It was in the fine print.

Dan:

Bo- gold. One of those things called ... Doubloons. Yep. That's it.

Bekah:

Doubloons? Like [inaudible]?

Dan:

[Laughs] Like a pirate. [Julia and Bekah laugh] And then I'll sell 'em when I need more money and the-

Julia:

Why doubl-

Dan:

-infinite supply. Yeah [laughs].

Julia:

Okay.

Dan:

It's the most practical way to transport gold [laughs].

Bekah:

What is happening?

Dan:

Yeah. And, you know, I could fill up a pool and go swimming in it, Scrooge McDuck style. I could sell them, you know, when I needed more money for things. I could probably make jewelry out of them — Doubloons, you know? Is that, you know --

Bekah:

Listen. Just for reference. We are recording this on a Thursday at 1.30 Eastern-

Dan:

Mm-hmm.

Bekah:

-in the afternoon. We are not even like-

Julia:

No one's --

Bekah:

-to a point where we should be [laughs] having this conversation.

Dan:

I- I went home for lunch just before this and opened my fridge to get a soda. And definitely took a hard look at the beer [laughs]. I chose not to today. But I- I- I was like, "It's been that kinda week." I- I- I took a look at it. So I decided to wait to later. But-

Julia:

Oh, my god.

Dan:

-I actually got my first, like, full night sleep last night in, I don't know, at least a week.

Bekah:

Oh, your brain doesn't know what to do with itself now. It's very confused.

Dan:

I know, I know. I have lots of energy today, so -- anyway-

Bekah:

Doubloons.

Dan:

-me and my gold Doubloons are gonna, you know? That's what we're gonna do.

Bekah:

Good luck, Julia. It's your turn [laughs].

Julia:

Yeah. I have a lot of thoughts now. My name's Julia Seidman. I am ... [exhales] I don't know. I guess I call my -- I -- lately, I've been calling myself a developer educator. I'm kind of -- mainly, what I do is I work with API companies to create sample apps, and getting started guides, and tutorials, and generally help them, like, improve their developer experience with, specifically, like, with an eye towards onboarding new developers, but also, like, trying to create content that inspires creativity. So, I write code, and I write about code, and, yeah. I ... [exhales] if I had an unlimited supply of something. So, I was gonna say sunscreen because I compulsively buy sunscreen, like, in enormous quantities. Every time I see it, I'm like, "Oh, I should probably buy more sunscreen." But I don't ever actually remember to use it. And I'm imagining that if I had an unlimited supply that just like materialized, then maybe I would actually remember to use the sunblock and I would stop spending so much money on sunblock-

Bekah:

Mm-hmm.

Julia:

-that doesn't get used. But, then I thought, there are rare earth metals that are much more valuable per ounce than gold.

Dan:

Yeah, but did they call an [??] Doubloons?

Julia:

And if I'm allowed sell the thing, and especially if I could like have rare earth metals without the environmental costs of mining them, and like, the, like, child labor costs of mining them, and all of that, then- then that's -- that -- that'd be really good. So, I think -- I'm not sure which rare earth metal, I have to do my research, but some -- yeah, that's what I'm thinking.

Dan:

Yes. I thought of another answer.

Julia:

Okay.

Dan:

E-energy. That'd be my -- that was my-

Bekah:

Ohh.

Dan:

-last -- other one, but, yeah.

Bekah:

Energy.

Dan:

Cuz I could sell that too, honestly. But I could also, you know-

Julia:

What?

Dan:

-power all-

Bekah:

Whoa. I was thinking-

Dan:

-power all my ba- my battery things.

Bekah:

-like, energy to get through the day. You're thinking of-

Dan:

Oh, personal energy? Oh, no, no, no. I meant, like --

Bekah:

-like, solar energy [laughs].

Julia:

Like, electricity.

Dan:

You -- you'll -- yeah, well, you know. Not -- don't have to be electricity. Just energy, you know? I can convert it into, like, electricity if I want. I can convert it into ... probably other things.

Bekah:

To be able to make you fast [chuckles]?

Dan:

Well, no. Probably could power a thing that, maybe, fast, you know? You know? So, yeah. That's it- that's it. That's-

Bekah:

Alright.

Dan:

-that's gotta be the real answer [chuckles].

Bekah:

Excellent.

Dan:

I- I- I do wanna know where these things come from, you know? Cuz -- because-

Bekah:

I wanna know where Julia gonna support her-

Dan:

-it's, like, unlimited supply.

Bekah:

-unlimited ... earth metals.

Dan:

Well, is it -- it not -- is it -- unlimited supply, I mean, yeah. Does it mean, like -- oh, you were asking about this too? Does it just, like, one appear when you need it? Or is it like --

Julia:

Yeah, kind of. Like, I have a-

Dan:

I mean it's an -- you know-

Julia:

-closet. Every time-

Dan:

-it has to be like that.

Julia:

-I'm looking at [unintelligible].

Dan:

Right.

Bekah:

Yeah. That's what I was imagining. A closet of [Julia laughs] --

Dan:

Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. So they don't -- yes. So nobody's mining them or- or- or making this sunblocker-

Julia:

Yeah.

Dan:

-or whatever.

Julia:

Yeah.

Dan:

Yeah. Yeah.

Julia:

As far as I know-

Dan:

I like it.

Julia:

-manufacturing sunblock is not, like-

Dan:

We need Kirk on this.

Julia:

-[inaudible] environmentally costly, but --

Dan:

I [inaudible] you.

Bekah:

We should -- that should be our last episode of this season. Should just be Kirk's questions that we answer.

Dan:

Oh, man. Kirk, if he was there for that, would just have an aneurysm, I think, by the end of it [laughs].

Bekah:

[Laughs] So, if you are listening and you have not experienced a Kirk question, when we do these questions before every Virtual Coffee, Kirk has been coming up with some- some doozies, I- I guess. You can label them where it leaves a lot of room for interpretation and requires you to think outside of the box. Which is ... a rabbit hole for most of us [laughs].

Julia:

Yeah. I hold a little bit of blame, potentially. I don't know. In that one time, in the co-working room, I pulled out a copy of, "Would You Rather?", questions-

Bekah:

Oh, yes.

Julia:

-for eight year olds? And there have been a few that were inspired by "Would You Rather? For 8 Year Olds".

Bekah:

Is that a book?

Julia:

It's a book.

Bekah:

Oh, oh.

Dan:

Mm.

Julia:

They have them -- one for seven year olds, eight year olds, nine year olds.

Bekah:

Oh.

Julia:

I don't know what the difference is, but --

Bekah:

My-

Dan:

I'm writing that down.

Bekah:

-kid has a birthday in a couple weeks. He's about to be eight, and he would love that. So I guess, don't -- this will come out after his birthday. So in case he listens, it will not- not be spoiled.

Julia:

[Laughs] Right. Your kids [inaudible].

Bekah:

I think this is the record for our longest intro ever [laughs].

Julia:

[Laughs] Sorry.

Bekah:

No, don't be sorry. It was all Dan's fault.

Dan:

No. No.

Julia:

I even held back on a story about gold Doubloons.

Bekah:

[Laughs] We -- you have a story about gold Doubloons?

Dan:

Oh, now I wanna hear it [laughs].

Bekah:

Yeah!

Julia:

Well, it's not about gold Doubloons. It's about gold Krugerrands, which --

Dan:

Wait. What are those?

Julia:

It -- so it was the currency in South Africa. Like ... I don't know. Historically. I'm not sure when they stopped using them. But they are ... I guess, they- [exhales] they were kinda popular among, like, people doing, like, black market kind of stuff, pre-internet age. And we had a super corrupt governor in Connecticut when I was growing up named John Rowland. And one of -- John Rowland had like a couple of cronies in my hometown. And one of his ... I don't know. Partners in crime-

Dan:

Mm-hmm.

Julia:

-was the father of one of my sister's classmates. And he- he was arrested while my sister was in high school. And I -- in my mind, they actually caught him in the act of burying gold Krugerrands in his backyard. I don't know that they actually caught him in the act. But, for sure, my sister went to high school with someone who was -- whose father was arrested and found to have hundreds of thousands of dollars of, like, illegal South African gold coins buried in his backyard. So --

Dan:

[Chuckles] Ah, that is incredible. I like that.

Julia:

It is really bizarre [laughs].

Dan:

This is what I'm talking about. It's so much of a better story than if you just had, like, cash buried in his backyard, you know?

Julia:

Oh, totally. Well, there was-

Dan:

Yeah.

Julia:

-that guy from Louisiana who had cash in his freezer. This guy, way more interesting [??].

Dan:

[Inaudible] one and a half inches -- yeah, they're like this quarter. Like, a little bit bigger than an American quarter, I suppose.

Julia:

Are you looking it up?

Dan:

I'm looking at 'em on Wikipedia. So, by 1980, they accounted for more than 90% of the global coin market.

Julia:

Wow.

Dan:

And was the number one choice for investors buying gold.

Julia:

Yeah.

Dan:

Yeah, yeah. They're not the [unintelligible].

Julia:

They're more like [inaudible] untraceable-

Dan:

Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Julia:

-you know? I dunno. Anyway --

Bekah:

This is where we need sound effects. For like, "[Singing] The more you know." Is that how it goes [laughs]?

Dan:

[Chuckles] Oh, yeah. Uh-huh.

Bekah:

We weren't --

Dan:

Well, I don't have that one. All I have is [winning sound effect plays].

Bekah:

That is --

Dan:

That's all I've got [laughs].

Bekah:

Not- not what we're -- not the vibe I was going for [laughs].

Dan:

Alright. So, these are cool. But, yeah. Doubloons, I feel like I need them to be bigger and- and thicker, you know?

Bekah:

So you can wear them?

Dan:

You know what I mean? Why, you could wear 'em, you could do, you know, I -- you what I mean?

Julia:

Well, I mean, the Krugerrands, like, they're a lot more portable than like a big brick.

Dan:

Oh, I get it. I mean, I understand practically, like, these are good for crime and stuff, you know? [Inaudible].

Bekah:

These are good for crime [laughs]?

Dan:

I'm saying, for my thing [chuckles], you know? This is why I want- I want -- if I have an unlimited supply, I'd might rather just, you know? You know what I mean? If I change my late -- mind later, I can just melt 'em down and make Krugerrands with them [laughs].

Julia:

True. True.

Dan:

Yeah, alright.

Bekah:

Okay.

Dan:

Well, that was our podcast [all laugh]. Thanks for coming, Julia [laughs].

Bekah:

I'm gonna -- there's no segue here. So, thanks for coming on the podcast, Julia. We like to get started with your origin story. And maybe that's where it starts, with gold coins and backyards. But [Julia laughs] give us your- your story of how you came to this point in your tech journey.

Julia:

I wish. If only. So, I- I -- when I was in college, I -- well, so, when I was in college, I double majored in anthropology and comparative religion, which is not useful in any commonly known sense of the word. But I had a- I had a- a dean who I knew pre- she was actually -- well, anyway. I knew her pretty well, and we were talking one time, and she said something about how she had had a car- she had decided to embrace the careen over the career. And I just really liked that phrase and idea, like -- and- and I would say that that's kind of what I aspire to, is, like, I- I can't plan. I'm no good at committing to- to any- [laughs] any, like, long term vision, but what I am good at is rolling with the punches and, like, just kinda seeing where things go. So, after college, I bounced around for a few years, working in -- as a professional fundraiser, as an events coordinator, really briefly, as a recruiter. And then, I spent like about four years working in finance, which was just a total -- like, I just stumbled into the job. They had hired somebody else who went to the same college and they were like, "Huh, let's hire her. Let's see how it goes." And-

Dan:

Mm-hmm.

Julia:

-I -- so, I really liked it in some ways. I really liked the- the sort of -- the analytical work, I liked that I was learning a lot because I had no background in finance. I did a lot of writing while I was there. And if I kind of look back at, like, what's the theme, in my- [chuckles] in my careen -- what I would say is that I -- what I- what I do, over the long arc, I learn about things, and then I write about them. So, at that phase, I was learning about finance and writing about finance, simultaneously. And that was great for a few years. But then in 2000 -- fall of 2008, winter of 2009, I don't remember. I- I don't know if other people remember this time as acutely as I do. I live in Seattle, WAMU collapsed. I worked in finance, everything else collapsed. We had people being taken to the ER in the middle of the work day because they thought they were having heart attacks, but it was actually just panic attacks. It was such an intensely stressful time that I was like, "Peace. I am- I am out here [laughs]. I do not wanna work in this world anymore. No one is happy." And so, I did -- I went back to school and did something that was probably as far in the opposite direction as you could go. And I became a high school English teacher. I did that for about 10 years. And then just kind of got exhausted by the ... I don't know. The vagaries of working in public education. And it -- oh. It's another story for another day, but I worked at a very high pressure, in a ver- high income, high pressure community. And, I was really not ... happy with, like, the way that my students lives were being shaped. So, when my second child was born, I was like, "You know, I'm gonna take a break." And I took a year off, and it felt really good. And so, I took another year off. And during that second year, I started learning how to code. I started kind of more with data science because of having that finance background. But along the way, kinda stumbled my way through various things. And I did a bootcamp, I did some self-taught stuff, I did some internships, I did a -- an kind of a incubator program. And then stumbled my way once again into this role that I'm in now, doing developer education. So, once again, I'm learning about things, and then I'm writing about them. So, yeah. That's- that's my origin story. And I think it's good because I finally found something where, like, there's really no limit on how much I can learn. And I have a ton of control over who I work with, and when I work, and all of that. And the people that I am teaching through my work, really wanna learn [chuckles]. They are intrinsically motivated and that's- that's cool. Yeah. So, that's me.

Bekah:

Yeah. That makes such a difference when people are motivated to learn.

Julia:

It's huge. [Laughs] It's huge. And, like, you get that sometimes in K-12 education, right? Like, I'm -- I don't know. I'm sure we all had times in our education where we were really, genuinely motivated by something, but there's just so much else going on that ... I- I don't know.

Bekah:

Yeah.

Julia:

I don't love it.

Bekah:

Right. Right. That's -- I mean, I -- my background's in education. I taught college English for 10 years. And it was a lot of core classes, which means people had to take those classes.

Julia:

Yeah.

Bekah:

It wasn't an option. Most of them did not wanna be there, didn't see the point of it, weren't motivated. And, like, to the point of being aggressively unmotivated and, like, angry-

Julia:

Oh, yeah.

Bekah:

-about things. I'm like, "This is not- not why I signed-

Julia:

[Laughs] No.

Bekah:

-up to teach."

Julia:

No.

Bekah:

And, like, the rare occasion, I would be able to teach a, like, a special interest class. I taught a screenwriting class once. I had eight or 10 students. It was the best experience. I loved that. Because everybody was excited about being there and talking about those things.

Julia:

Yeah.

Bekah:

But those experiences are ... not as frequent [chuckles].

Julia:

No. Nope. No, they're not.

Bekah:

Yeah.

Julia:

And yet -- I- I mean, the people who stick with it and do it for a long time and -- I mean, I have enormous respect, but I also don't at all judge anyone who opts out because it can be pretty demoralizing.

Bekah:

Yeah. And I think that — I don't know if it's a generational thing or not, but I know my parents stayed in careers forever. And a lot of the people around us, who are in the same generation, they spent their entire careers, you know, doing one thing. But I see more people now — maybe just cuz I'm older — changing careers and it-

Julia:

Yeah.

Bekah:

-in, like, not having to be stuck doing something that you're not interested in doing is really important to me. So, I know, like, I would talk to somebody else about a career in tech and I was like, "I don't know if I'll be here five years or not." She -- she's the same thing. Like, "Yeah, I don't know if I will either. I kinda hope I'm not." Like, there are lots of options out there in finding, exploring those things that keep you interested, I think helps you to, I dunno, be motivated in all areas of your life.

Julia:

Uh-huh. Yeah. And that's something, like, when I kinda made the transition into tech, I was pretty explicit in saying like, "It's not that I think I'm gonna be writing code all day, every day, for the rest of my life. This is a skill -- it's a skill and like a discipline that can feed other kinds of growth-

Bekah:

Yes.

Julia:

-that can enable me to get involved in- in different things. And I- I think, initially, I thought of it more as a skill. And now, I would say it's really is more of like a discipline. Like, there's not one skill that- that anybody learns, except maybe -- and- and I think that thi-thi-this is part of like what has helped make me successful in the time that I've been working in tech? Maybe the skill is just learning how to learn.

Bekah:

Mm-hmm.

Julia:

Like -- and I think that that's, like, if I [laughs] -- kinda what I'm good at. Like, I'm good at learning about stuff. And that's, I think, probably the most essential skill. Otherwise, like, it's not, like, you could say like, "Oh, I have a skill in writing JavaScript." Like, that's not -- I mean, that is skill, but it changes. And, really, the skill isn't ab- is about, like, habits of mind and ... I don't know.

Bekah:

Yeah. I love that. And I think, I- I also always struggle with people asking me what my career goals are. And I think, that's, for like a lot of this reason, I don't really have career goals. Like, I'm interested in, you know, connecting other people. And like you said, like, learning new things. And so, for me, it's not like, "Oh, I wanna be a senior blah, blah, blah, someday," you know? I just wanna keep doing things that I'm interested in and helping to support other people, you know, feel part of something.

Julia:

Mm-hmm. I mean, I think it's cool when people have those aspirations to --

Bekah:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think that's totally fine. I just think that there are so many different career paths and ways to approach what you're doing. That, like, acknowledging that I'm interested in learning or learning new things now. That's a really great place to be too.

Julia:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bekah:

So, let's back up a little bit and talk about what your work, what you do for work.

Julia:

Sure.

Bekah:

Just to give, like, more of a zoomed in idea of what you're doing daily, or, you know, how the projects get chosen that you're working on, and talk through some other things that you like about that.

Julia:

Okay. So I'll just talk about what I'm working on right now, cuz I think that's a good sort of snapshot. Right now, I have three main projects that I'm working on. Three different clients, three different sort of ... types of work. One is like an API tooling company, and I am a frequent contributor to their technical blog. So I just wrote a three part series on authentication and -- authorization and an authentication best practices for APIs. So, I'm not writing code when I'm doing that, but I'm doing a lot of in depth technical research, reading code, reading, you know, reading documentation from different ... I don't know. Different solutions providers. I did an SME interview as part of that with a senior engineer who oversees some of their security stuff at- at that -- at my client company. And then writing those articles, like, for a technical audience. Writing for API developers to say, like, "Here's how to approach the decision making process." And that was one of the things that I try to do as a writer and like, part of why they keep bringing me back there [chuckles] is that there's a lot of repetitive content out there. So, if you look up like API security best practices, you're gonna see a lot of articles that say, essentially, the same thing. Anytime you look up anything to do with GWT -- JaWTs- JaWTs — j- JSON Web Tokens [chuckles], the first hits are the same. Like, it's -- everything is so SEO optimized, like -- and what I try to do is to take a- a point of view that's a little bit more about like, "Okay, there's a lot of options. There's not a best option. How do we come up with a decision making framework?" Like, how do you, as a developer, as a, you know, as a team lead, a product architect, or whatever, how do you approach the decision making process of like, "What's the best option for me?" So, that's kinda part of what that series is about. And I've done things like that on other aspects of API design for them. So that's one thing. And that's kind of the least technical part of what I do. Then, right now, I'm working with two other clients. One is ... they have a GraphQL API that coordinates the APIs for like, maybe, I don't know. Just estimating 40 different brands of IoT devices. So, like, your Schlage smart locks, or your Phillips hue light bulbs, or your ecobee thermostat, or whatever, each of those has its own API and its own app. And as a homeowner, you can use like Google Home or whatever. But let's say that you were, like, an apartment building superintendent, and you wanted to be able to manage all of the smart devices in your buildings from one place instead of all of those places, they make an API that coordinates all of those things. And so, I -- but right now, most of their documentation is very, like, marketing-

Bekah:

Mm.

Julia:

-oriented. They -- it's, like, they've been very focused on just like onboarding their first few significant customers. And the -- and their technical onboarding has been like super intensive, custom, like, hand holding. And I -- we're -- I'm involved in helping to transition them away from that, like, creating more standard documentation for, like, those getting started guides. So, how to build a Node app that allows you to control all of your smart locks. How to build an -- you know, and then, eventually, like integrating all of these different things in there. But also, along the way, explaining like, "Why is this a GraphQL API instead of REST? Why do we insist on you using a specific authentication protocol?" And- and there are technical reasons that they do all of those things that have to do with coordinating between 40 different APIs. So, the content that I'm creating for them, some of it is just creating these sample apps and kind of documenting the nitty-gritty of those apps. And then, some of it is the more in depth explanations of, like, wha- the why, of how it works. And that's been really cool because I've gotten to learn a lot about-

Bekah:

Mm-hmm.

Julia:

-these different aspects of it. Plus, I think IoT is really interesting. We have -- everything in our house is smart -- is like a smart device. And it frustrates me that they don't talk to each other very well [chuckles].

Bekah:

Yeah.

Julia:

And --

Dan:

Mm-hmm.

Julia:

[Laughs] It's ... yeah, I think it's cool. I just -- it's a really exciting, interesting project to be working on. And the engineers who work at this company are, like, they are -- they know their stuff. Like, they are very smart people. Cr- creative, analytical people. So it's been really neat working with them. And then my other client [laughs] that I'm working on right now -- working with right now, this one is, like, simultaneously an example of what I do and really, really, really do not like about my current role. So this is a company who makes a player engagement API for game developers. So, you know, sending push notifications and rewards, you know, in game ... stuff. And I'm creating a lot of the same kind of like getting started guides. Because, again, like, they -- their existing documentation sort of assumes that you already know what this thing does and, roughly, how to use it. Like, maybe you've already been using a competitor product and you're just switching over. And so, it's- it's not gonna be any challenge to -- but they're hoping to expand and- and kind of make themselves more accessible to a broader audience of game developers. So, to do this, to create the content that they want [chuckles], I have had to learn how to work with game code. And-

Bekah:

Ooh, right.

Julia:

-I -- it's just, it's not all the same [chuckles]. It's like, the transition from working with a REST API to a GraphQL API in Node is no big deal, right? The transition from working with one authentication protocol to another in .NET is no big deal. But changing this entire framework and way of thinking about project architecture has been really, really difficult for me. And it's just not easy to troubleshoot and it's ... yeah. It's been interesting. I mean, it's cool to be learning and working on- on something so radically different. And I hope, eventually, I'll be able to create some content for them that's useful and meaningful, but it is definitely something where I'm like, "Oh, there has gotta be somebody else out there who's better qualified to do this. [Laughs] It's sure not me. But it's kind of the nature of -- like, there are just -- there aren't an enormous number of companies that do what our company does. And I'm -- I'm technically a freelancer, but I -- almost all my work right now is through- is through an agency. And there just aren't that many agencies that do what we do. And we had a sales guy for a little whi- while who was maybe overselling [laughs] our technical expertise or, like, overselling the idea that, you know, developers could learn anything and, you know, in no time flat [laughs]. Yeah. Yeah. But -- so, that -- that's the kind of thing, like, a -- I'm -- I don't know. Does that answer? Is that a good answer?

Bekah:

Yeah. Yeah, this is great. I mean, you really broke down a lot of different things. Do you get to choose the projects and the companies that you work with or does the agency-

Julia:

Hmm.

Bekah:

-assign you?

Julia:

So, when I first started working with them, it was really just like, kind of one off freelance stuff. And over the course of a couple years -- well, over the course of a year, you know, I- I took on a variety of different projects. And at first, they were like pretty targeted to stuff I already knew and stuff I had already worked on. And then, gradually, they started kinda pulling me in on more stuff and saying, "Hey, would you be interested in this? Would you be interested in this?" And eventually, I think that they realized like, "Oh, hey. Julia is a person who is happy to learn new stuff, happy to take on challenging clients." So, I -- I'm now -- like, I'm a 1099, but I'm- I'm the staff writer at- at the agency. And, I mean, I kind of get the clients that ... are too difficult to give to one of our freelancers. So, like, I kinda get to choose. I was -- you know, at some point, they asked me like, "Hey, would you wanna work on this crypto thing?" And I was like, "No [laughs], not really." So, I mean, I do get some input. And that first client that I was talking about, is one where I did a few pieces for them, they really liked it. I was in some meetings with them. I really liked them. And so, I've gotten -- I've been able to say, "Hey, I-

Bekah:

Yeah.

Julia:

-really like working with them." Like, "I've got ideas. Let me -- let -- can, you know, can I take on more of that relationship?" But, yeah. I dunno [laughs].

Bekah:

So, so with-

Dan:

That's awesome.

Bekah:

-the ideas, do they come in -- does the company come in with ideas or they have, like, a general -- do you define --

Julia:

So we- we do our- our -- I have a fly in here. Go away. Our principal consultant, when- when we onboard a new client, does a process that they call the- the dis- the developer content action plan. So they do like a developer content review where they say like, "Here are the gaps in your existing documentation. This is what developers want to see. This is, you know, this is -- these are your areas of strength." And- and they have -- we have kind of a, you know, a rubric. And then they come up with a -- an action plan based on that content gap analysis. So, it's a collaborative process for sure. And the longer I've been with the agency, like, the more I've been able to be involved in that process. Yeah. So it- it's a mix, right? Sometimes clients have wacky ideas about what they want. And then we have some clients who've been clients for a long time where we've moved past, like, that content gap, and it's more like, "Hey, we would love to have, you know, this more kinda off the wall piece." Like, I did a piece for Algolia around Black Friday last year. That was like an instant inventory. It was like, how can you use Algolia to, like, manage your Black Friday sales?

Dan:

Yeah.

Julia:

And they said, "You know, this is something we think we'll, like, kinda republish every year leading up to Black Friday."

Bekah:

That's awesome.

Julia:

So, you know, it- it's like that kind of thing where it's more like ... I don't know.

Bekah:

Yeah. Yeah.

Julia:

Creative.

Bekah:

That's fun. What? Okay. So, you've done -- [chuckles] you've really broken down a lot of the- the stuff that I was interested in hearing about, which is great. Like, there are some really fun parts. There are some parts that are not so fun or kind of challenging. Are there -- is there [laughs] any -- so, I would say, it sounds like the part that you like the most is being able to learn new things. But it also seems pretty fun to be able to develop those deeper relationships with the clients too. Is that --

Julia:

Absolutely. Yeah. And I- [exhales] I really -- I like ... that I've been able to recently kind of develop these more in depth relationships with clients. It's a mixed bag though, because the consultant client relationship is ... as I'm sure you both know, not always the easiest relationship to navigate. And as a contractor with my agency, like, I'm always kind of -- I, like, a little on guard about, like -- oh, my god. I -- I'm not even an employee of this company exactly [laughs]. Like, if I say the wrong thing and like, upset this client, like, "Aah," you know? It's my butt on the line. And our- our principal consultant is like an amazing guy. But it's just not- it's not the same as like being part of the same team, like, that manager relationship where like- like, I don't know. I just -- there's always this, like, added level of stress in conversations with clients where I'm like, "Oh, I really hope I don't say the wrong thing [laughs]." But [exhales] I do like it, and I think that, like, whatever the next move is in my careen, I- I wanna have it be something where I have more depth-

Bekah:

Hmm.

Julia:

-more depth in my relationships with people, but also like, more depth in working with a- a more focused tech stack, because it does get pretty exhausting. Like, just bouncing from one thing to another and kinda feeling like I never work with any one thing long enough to really have any mastery. And like, I know I'm learning cuz when I come back to stuff later, like, I can achieve more complex results, and I can work faster, and I can troubleshoot better. But, like, I don't ever feel -- I- I never exactly feel competent [laughs].

Bekah:

Yeah.

Julia:

And that's kinda tough sometimes.

Dan:

Yeah. Totally get that. I mean, like, digging in all the way into something can feel good. It -- you know, [chuckles] I- I was gonna make some joke about how that's like, just being a JavaScript in general, where everything's always new and changing-

Julia:

Yeah, yeah.

Dan:

-you know [laughs]?

Julia:

Well, I know. That's- that's, like, absolutely-

Dan:

But- but then it's --

Julia:

-an industry wide phenomenon.

Dan:

Right. But still, I mean, I -- you know, I still have been doing RAD for, like, years, you know? And it's like, I actually know it, like, pretty well. You know what I mean [laughs]? And it's- and it's- and it's nice to be able to do that.

Julia:

Yeah. And I would say, like, it's like ... you know, [exhales] earlier this spring, I was working on this kinda complicated .NET sequel thing, and then I'm working in Unity, and I have to learn Xcode, and how to do iOS development. And also on the side, I'm working with GraphQL, and, like -- it's like, I just -- I- I mean, I really bounce around a lot. And occasionally, they'll be like, "Do you know Angular?" And I'm like, "Oh." [All laugh] That's -- the- the- the GraphQL client. We're all in agreement. The- the next thing -- the next deliverable is for me to do something in Flutter. And I'm like, "Oh, for Christ's sake."

Dan:

Yeah. You were -- I saw you mentioned that on Slack. I don't even know what Flutter is really. What is it?

Julia:

It's- it's a mobile framework. So, it's like a -- but it's ... so --

Dan:

Like JavaScript? But ... makes mobile apps?

Julia:

Yeah. But it's --

Dan:

I suppose I could look it up.

Bekah:

It seems like a React Native competitor. Am I wrong about that?

Julia:

It's a React Native competitor. It -- I can't remember what the big advantage is over React Native.

Bekah:

Well, I've heard a lot of React Native. People say there's no advantage [laughs].

Dan:

Well, React Native is really annoying. So, if this is better than, you know? I've just started my first React -- I just started digging to React Native for the first time, like, a month or two ago. And-

Julia:

Yeah. It's a React Native competitor-

Dan:

-I'm still in that -- I'm just at a mad phase.

Julia:

-and the- and the idea is that, like- like, React Native, it's- it's, like, device agnostic. Like, it's not like writing an iOS app or [inaudible].

Dan:

Right, right. Wants to published anywhere kind of thing. Yeah.

Julia:

Yeah.

Dan:

Yeah. I mean, starting from scratch, i-in a, like, a big way like that is- is hard, you know? I was- I was just thinking in my head, I was just, like, outlining a blog post about, like, how I learned things, you know, from scratch, you know? And-

Julia:

Mm-hmm.

Dan:

-like, the bigger it is, like, the -- it's just like you were talking about the game app, right? The, like, the further away from what you're used to it is the harder it is. I mean- I mean, like, that's an, like, an obvious statement. But it's, like, it's- it's much more -- for me, it's much more exhausting too and it takes longer, but it's also-

Julia:

Yeah.

Dan:

-like, harder, [laughs] you know- you know what I mean?

Julia:

Yeah.

Dan:

Like, it's not just a simple, "Oh, it just takes two days instead of half an hour," if it's, you know, some package or whatever, you know? [Inaudible].

Julia:

Well, it's like, you know, we- we --

Dan:

And it's -- it is. It's hard sometimes.

Julia:

We're all- all -- like, the idea that it's hard to estimate how long things will take is obviously well known phenomenon. But when you don't know anything [laughs]?

Dan:

Yeah. Yeah.

Julia:

It's impossible to estimate. It's like [inaudible]-

Dan:

Oh, I mean -- yeah.

Julia:

-probably roughly estimate how long it'll take me to, like, write something in Flutter. Because I read about it and I was like, "Oh, okay. This is not radically different than anything I've done before."

Dan:

Right.

Julia:

But with game development, it's like, "Oh, gee." Like, this is, you know, there's just reams of files that I'm like, "I have no idea what any of these do [laughs]."

Dan:

Yeah.

Julia:

You know? I don't know. It's just -- and yeah. I'm a- I'm a terrible jaw clincher, like, I just all day, every day. And over the last few months, as I've been working on this, like, these few particularly difficult projects, I- I actually went to the dentist. And I was like, "You have to help me [laughs]." Like, "I'm going crazy." So that's why I now ... sugar-free-

Bekah:

Aah.

Julia:

-Werthers Original. I'm like an 80 year old diabetic [Bekah laughs]. I suck on sugar-free Werthers Original all day, cuz-

Dan:

Nice.

Julia:

-it keeps me from punching my teeth.

Bekah:

That's interesting. My dentist sent me to my chiropractor to have my jaw adjusted. That is one of, like, the most awkward, uncomfortable adjustments that I have had. But I am also a jaw clincher and it was causing my tooth to grow thickening roots that were starting to protrude in my gums [laughs].

Julia:

Yeah. Yeah. No, that's what I, like ... yeah. Anyway. We don't need to get into my oral health [all laugh].

Dan:

You mentioned the, you know, estimating and all that stuff. And I- I- I actually, like, I was been wondering about this since you talked about it, especially since you're a contractor. How, like, how it works? What, like, your arrangement? I mean, you get an assignment of writing an article about something that you don't know about yet. And so-

Julia:

Right.

Dan:

-like, how does that- how does that break down? How does- how does -- what's the process of, like -- cuz- cuz if I have a project, you know, maybe I try to estimate it or something, and there's always unknowns, but-

Julia:

Right.

Dan:

-with writing assignments, lots of times it's -- there's other ... [chuckles] you know, it's- it's per pages.

Julia:

You know --

Dan:

Like, there's like -- there's lots of different ways. And so is it just ... you kinda treat it like a software project and estimate-

Julia:

Yeah. The writing- the writing-

Dan:

-hourly and deliver everything at the end, or --

Julia:

-process -- the writing process doesn't really take me that much time. So, like, if I'm writing about something that I already understand really well or just, like, a very simple API where I just wanna show, like, very basic, like, "Here's- here's how to call it the first time." I know very well how long that'll take me, like, the writing process. Just -- it's just -- it's, like, as ... I don't know. I -- the di- so, one of the differences is when I was working — before I kinda got brought in house as a staff writer, then I was paid by piece. And it was a standard rate. And the pieces that I was getting were pretty standardized. At the point that it started getting more complex, where it was like, "Hey, stuff's coming back to me from the client, like, asking me for a lot of revisions that, like, were not in scope," you know [laughs]?

Bekah:

Mm.

Dan:

Mm-hmm.

Julia:

Then it was like, "Can we have a conversation about changing how I'm compensated? Because this is not- this is not standard."

Bekah:

Yeah.

Julia:

Now, I'm paid a m- a monthly retainer. And our project manager sort of -- I can wor- I communicate with her about, like, where I'm at on different stuff. And we kind of scale how- how much I take on just based on how long things are taking. So --

Dan:

Yeah. Nice.

Julia:

Yeah. Yeah. It's not -- it's- it's pretty- it's pretty flexible. They had expectations when I came on board as a staff writer, that turned out to be, like, really wacky. But everybody realized it very quickly, like [chuckles], I cannot produce 10 articles a month if I have to learn an entirely new framework for every single article.

Bekah:

I don't know if anybody-

Dan:

Right. Yeah.

Bekah:

-can produce 10 articles a month. Like, that's just a lot of- [chuckles] a lot of way [??].

Julia:

Yeah. I mean, like, I could do 10 if they're all just, like --

Dan:

It's stuff you already know, right?

Julia:

Yeah. 500 words on-

Dan:

Yeah, right. Yeah.

Julia:

-you know-

Dan:

No, that's cool.

Julia:

-why you should have docs for your API [Dan and Bekah chuckle]. I'm good. I could write a lot of those. But, yeah. It's ... I don't know. It's interesting though. I think I was talking about this with you recently, Bekah. Like, feeling kind of like -- I do think I'm underpaid, maybe? Because I think that the amount that I actually get done-

Bekah:

Mm-hmm.

Julia:

-is probably on par with somebody who's a full-time employee. But I'm paid as a part-time 1099 employee, because I don't have this sort of like official role in the organization. The upside is I have very few meetings [laughs], which I love. But it's also harder to kind of -- I- I don't -- it's hard for me to ... really, like, figure out what, like, what my compensation should be because I don't really know how, like, my role compares to somebody who's in house somewhere. Although I will say I interviewed for a role somewhere recently where they said something like, "Oh, our full-time writers write about four articles a month." And I was like, [laughs] "What?" Like, "Oh, okay. I could do that very easily." Like -- but, yeah.

Dan:

Yeah. Well, no. I mean, that's- that's -- I mean ... yeah. It's gotta be tough, but like, the -- I, you know, I was thinking about this when you were talking about the, like, actual different articles you were writing. And, you know, some of the thought processes you are explaining are complex things, right? That- that- that are targeted towards more senior developers, right? You're not writing the -- you're not being asked to write the, like, sort of super inter- I mean, maybe you are. But, like, lots-

Julia:

Yeah. On --

Dan:

-of times, lots of time you're not writing the super intro basic stuff or the SEO, you know, fodder stuff, right? You're- you're writing --

Julia:

No. Right. And that's something that we -- like, as a company, we're like, "Listen. We're -- we'll like try to make the stuff that we write reasonably optimized, SEO wise. But that's not what we're here for. Like, we are not here to, like, you know, just create fluff content. Like, we want content that actually engages developers for the long term." And there is definitely, like, you have to be discoverable. And some of that is like identifying search terms that just have really low results volume. So, like, for example. Just recently, it was, like, we noticed that there's very few results for the search phrase, JSON payload. And so we went to one of our clients. And we're like, "Can we write something on this term? Like, it's relevant to you. And like, it's relevant to developers. People are searching for it and there's not that much content." But it's based on the idea that like, people are searching for this because they want information, not like-

Dan:

Mm-hmm.

Julia:

-they're searching for it. And so, like, let's- let's create the fluff. I think -- so the- the principal of our -- the principal consultant is, he wrote a book called "Developer Marketing Does Not Exist", which I think is kind of a goofy title. That was a face of recognition. Bekah, do you know the book?

Bekah:

Yes. I -- it's -- so, I don't know who recommended it to me. But it's definitely on my list of books that I should read.

Julia:

Yeah. He's -- and the idea is basically, like, if developers feel like they're being marketed to, like, they're not gonna -- nobody wants that. Like, I wanna know that a product is gonna actually solve my problem. I wanna know that, like, if I start using something, I'm gonna be fully supported in my journey as a technical user. And so, like, the content that we're creating is really geared towards that developer experience of like, "Okay, great. You made it to our website. You signed, you know, you signed up for your free trial account. Are you gonna actually be able to get stuff done? And are you gonna feel successful and empowered by the content that you find here? Or are you gonna feel like you're being, you know, told exactly how to do it? And if you wanna do anything different, you have absolutely no idea how to make it work." Yeah. I can't remember what you said that made me just march [??] into that. But --

Dan:

Mm-hmm. No. I was just talking about the -- yeah, I was talking about how the content you're writing is- is- is ... talking about some high level concepts and, you know?

Julia:

Oh, yeah, yeah. Like- like --

Dan:

It was mostly just- mostly just, like, you're operating on like a senior developer level, you know? Well- well -- and you were talking about competition before. And that's what made- made me start-

Julia:

Yeah.

Dan:

-talking about this, you know?

Julia:

Yeah.

Dan:

But, like the- the --

Julia:

And then, that's -- well, the hard -- part of the hard thing for me is, like, I really, genuinely love what I do and that actually makes it harder for me to, like, fight for the compensation [laughs].

Dan:

Mm. Yeah. Yeah. I hear that.

Julia:

I also have a hard [??] time with the fact that right now, like, I work from ten to three ... roughly. Sometimes I work a little in the evenings, sometimes I get started a little earlier in the morning, but, like, I really only work like 20, 25 hours a week.

Dan:

Yeah.

Julia:

[Exhales] And I'm -- I just -- I know that, like, taking a full-time job, like, the difference that additional 10 to 15 hours a week is just gonna be meetings-

Bekah:

Yes.

Julia:

-and like, annoying emails. And like, I don't -- like, am I willing to take less money to not deal with that stuff? Like -- and have the flexibility in my schedule? Like, yeah. I guess I am [chuckles].

Dan:

Yep. I mean, if you really- really wanted or needed more money, you could pick up more clients too. Like, that's the beauty of being independent. It's -- you can do what you want.

Julia:

Yeah, it's true. It's true. I could. And I do, you know, I toy it with that [laughs], but --

Dan:

Or just raise your rates, you know? It's all- all good.

Julia:

Yeah, yeah.

Dan:

Just send up an email. That'll be fine.

Julia:

Yeah, it's true. I have such anxiety about -- I think I better deliver a couple of successful projects on these two nightmare clients before I ask for --

Dan:

Yes. Say, "Now that I am a game developer-

Julia:

[Laughs] Yeah, right.

Dan:

-this is my new rate [chuckles]."

Julia:

[Laughs] I guess we all -- the game developers are paid.

Dan:

Now that I'm a Flutter developer, this is my new rate.

Julia:

All developers are, like, hideously underpaid.

Dan:

Well, now that I'm --

Bekah:

[Laughs] An Angular developer.

Dan:

I'll- I'll write it for you. To whom it may concern --

Julia:

Yeah.

Bekah:

I know --

Julia:

It's interesting. I mean, the whole game development world is like its own --

Dan:

Yeah, I don't know anything about it. Yeah. So far, separated from ... it's -- it is weird. Like, the -- if you think about it. Cuz I, you know, I- I- I get a lot of over- I mean, obviously, most of my overlap is with other web developers in different technologies. But even so, there's ... I don't know anybody does game development, you know? [Chuckles] Just, like -- and I know a lot of developers a-and it's just, yeah. It's --

Julia:

Yeah. I mean, I've lived in Seattle for 17 years. Like, I've -- I know people at so many different tech companies. I know recruiters all over the place. And at one point, I was -- somebody had expressed an interest in working for a game company. And I was like, "Well, I'll reach out." But like ... it was like, you know, one person was like, "Well, I- I know that the VP of HR at Wizards of the Coast. But that's about as close as I can get." I was like, "Well, I don't think that's quite what we're looking for [Julia and Dan chuckle]."

Bekah:

Well, Julia, this has been a really great conversation. And -- but it is time to wrap it up.

Julia:

Yes.

Bekah:

So, is there-

Julia:

Yes.

Bekah:

-any last words of wisdom you have for our listeners or things you want them to -- you think they would benefit from learning about?

Julia:

Nah, I don't -- I was hanging with David Alpert a couple weeks ago, and we were talking about the idea that, like ... [exhales] it was after I gave the lunch and learn about feedback. We were talking about the idea that, like, giving feedback, being a mentor of some kind, formal or informal, is sort of an intrinsic part of your responsibility in- in the tech industry. And I- I think it's a really -- it's something I think about a fair amount that, like, you know, I don't necessarily have like ... a huge wealth of technical experience. I haven't been in the industry that long. But I think it's just really important for everybody to remember that, like, you have valuable experience, and knowledge, and skills, and insight. And, you know, all of us are always learning and we should all always be teaching as well. And that's not- that's not like to say that you need to be, you know, giving formal instruction on something. But that, like, we all benefit from people sharing what they know, sharing their perspectives. You may not be an expert in anything, but you're an expert in being yourself, right? You know? And it's like, I talking with somebody who has a lot of experience in- in, like, tech support. And I was like, "Listen, you may not think of yourself this way, but you are a UX expert. Like, you know more about actual user experience than, like, almost anybody. If you've worked in tech support for three years or whatever, like, you have so much hands on knowledge and insight into how people use technology, share that. Like, at -- but also, like, before you can share it, you have to actually reflect on it and try to like, give it some framework." And I think that that's something I've really been trying to do myself. Is, like, I know that I know things. How can I put them in a framework that allows me to share them with other people? So, yeah. We're all always learning. We also should all always be teaching. And I think that's ... I dunno. Yeah.

Bekah:

I love that. That's so great. And what a great way to end this episode. So, thanks so much, Julia, for being with us. We- we had a great time today.

Julia:

Absolutely! My pleasure.

Dan:

Thanks, Julia. I'm -- also I looked that up. And the most expensive, precious metal is rhodium. So-

Julia:

Oh.

Dan:

-if you are going that direction, rhodium is gonna be what -- where you're going. I've never heard of it before. But --

Julia:

Rhodium. Well, I know that-

Bekah:

Do you use it --

Julia:

-rhodium-

Dan:

Are- are right jewel- [??]

Julia:

-jewelry is rhodium plating.

Bekah:

Yeah.

Dan:

Huh? That's because that's-

Bekah:

Well, what else --

Dan:

-that's -- it's fancy [chuckles]. I don't- I don't know.

Bekah:

Do we [unintelligible] here? I don't believe you [laughs].

Dan:

It's used for -- oh, it's very reflective. So it's used in search lights, mirrors, and jewelry [chuckles]. I think it's mostly just that it's rare. I don't know. Anyway --

Julia:

I would --

Dan:

That's it [laughs].

Julia:

Yeah.

Dan:

That's all I got [all laugh].

Julia:

Good.

Dan:

All right. Cool. Well, thank you, Julia. I [laughs] -- this is great.

Bekah:

Great way to end this episode. You even did such a great job [all laugh].

Dan:

Well, I had the tab open from- from before-

Julia:

[Unintelligible]-

Dan:

-and then I- I forgot about it. Now -- I didn't wanna --

Julia:

-what is sublimation.

Bekah:

Yeah [laughs].

Dan:

Okay. Thanks, Julia.

Julia:

Yeah, thank you.

Dan:

Thank you for listening to this episode of the Virtual Coffee Podcast. This episode was produced by Dan Ott and Bekah Hawrot Weigel. If you have questions or comments, you can hit us up on Twitter at VirtualCoffeeIO, or email us at podcast@virtualcoffee.io. You can find the show notes, sign up for the newsletter, check out any of our other resources on our website, virtualcoffee.io. If you're interested in sponsoring Virtual Coffee, you can find out more information on our website at virtualcoffee.io/sponsorship. Please subscribe to our podcast and be sure to leave us a review. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next week!

The Virtual Coffee Podcast is produced by Dan Ott and Bekah Hawrot Weigel and edited by Dan Ott.