Jörn Bernhardt - Becoming a Founder

Show Notes:

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Transcript:

Bekah: 00:07

Hello and welcome back to the Virtual Coffee Podcast. I am Bekah, and this is a podcast that features members of the Virtual Coffee community. Virtual Coffee is an intimate group of developers at all stages of their coding journey, and they're here on this podcast sharing their stories and what they've learned. Here with me today is my co-host, Dan

Dan: 00:28

What up, Bek? How's it going? We're back!

Bekah: 00:31

We are back. We are back for this brand new season of the Virtual Coffee Podcast season seven.

Dan: 00:38

Season seven. Can you believe it? I think we're, uh, I don't know when we're supposed to come out with this, but we took a little break, but I'm really excited to get, get going again. It, it, we've recorded a couple already and, uh, it's been really nice and really fun. I, I missed it, so I'm, I'm happy to be back.

Bekah: 00:57

Well, I'm really excited to be back too. We have some awesome guests this season. Some new friends, some friends who have been around for a while. What are we talking about this season, Dan?

Dan: 01:07

We're talking about becoming a founder. We're talking about like some technical writing stuff. We have, uh, already had a couple discussions about neuro neurodiversity in tech, uh, which is obviously you've, if you're a long time listener, you know, that's kind of a, kind of a good topic for us to talk about. What else are we talking about? This, this season? We got a

Bekah: 01:28

Career transitions. We're always fan of career transitions. Lots of new origin stories.

Dan: 01:34

Origin stories are almost the best. I mean, all really, all of it is the best part, but I, I love hearing people's origin stories so much. And I'd say at least like 50, 60% of our guests say, oh, I just have a boring origin story, you know? And then they like, tell us and it's never boring, And it's always, it's always. Very, I dunno, unique and interesting. I, I, I find them endlessly fascinating.

Bekah: 01:57

Yeah, I think it doesn't matter what your origin story is, even if it, you have taken like a quote unquote traditional route into tech. I always enjoy hearing how people got here and what they've done to, you know, oh, they with technology as a child, or they hated technology as a child. I don't know. It's just fun to see the different paths that lead people to where they are today.

Dan: 02:19

Yeah, absolutely. And honestly, I don't even know these days what you, what even is a traditional path into tech, you know? Uh, everything has changed so much. I mean, maybe co maybe college and computer science and stuff, or, but like that's I've dug in on the, the people that have gone through like college. College. I. I've, I've, I mean, I always find it very fascinating. So yeah, our first guest this season is, uh, is Jörn Bernhardt, and he is from Germany and he's been a member for a while. He, uh, Virtual Coffee and, um, he's really great guy. I, I, I've always enjoyed hanging out with him. He's come on to TypeScript Tuesdays a few times. Um, and he recently actually just started a new Coffee Table group in Virtual Coffee that's doing CSS battles on Fridays.

Bekah: 03:09

have to announce it at Virtual Coffee every Tuesday, and it has a really hard title. What

Dan: 03:16

Oh yeah. Uh, he, he likes alliteration. He's a big fan of that. So,

Bekah: 03:20

Yeah, it is Front End Friday Folks Fighting CSSBattle.dev.

Dan: 03:28

Yeah. Uh, that was like the fourth one he sent to me. He sent me a bunch of titles, so he worked really hard on that one. Um, so. We had a really great time talking to Jörn, um, on the podcast. He has a, again, a, a really interesting story and he's had a very interesting career too, um, which I enjoyed hearing about. He's a two-time founder and he does a lot of work with governments, which that's like a whole world that I know nothing about. Um, and it was really cool hearing Jörn how he's working with government stuff and still doing his own thing cuz he is independent. He is not an employee of a government, but his company, does contracting with, uh, with governments and I dunno, I found that, I found that very interesting. It was a good time talking to Jörn and I know you all are gonna enjoy it.

Bekah: 04:18

We start every episode of the podcast, like we start every Virtual Coffee. We introduce ourselves with our name, where we're from, what we do, and a random check-in question. Today's question is, what's your favorite science fiction story? My name is Bekah. I am a technical community builder from a small town in Ohio, and my favorite science fiction story is Kindred by Octavia Butler, which is now a mini-series. And I haven't seen it because it's my favorite book and I'm too nervous to watch it because if they don't do it right, I'm gonna be really angry.

Dan: 05:03

what happens in Kindred? I feel like I've read that.

Bekah: 05:06

So it is a slave narrative time travel story.

Dan: 05:12

Are there more than, is it a series of books?

Bekah: 05:15

no, but you know what Parable of the Sower, I think is by Octavia Butler, and we did that for Virtual Coffee Book Club a long time ago.

Dan: 05:23

Okay. I definitely read that one.

Bekah: 05:26

Yeah.

Dan: 05:27

That's cool. Octavia Butler is dope.

Bekah: 05:29

Yeah.

Dan: 05:30

cool. Hi, I am Dan. I live in Cleveland. I do things on computers, and uh, um, yeah, I don't know. I mean, the first thing that pops in my mind is Star Wars. Um, there are some. People will, might argue that it's not sci-fi cuz of reasons, you know, so I understand that. Uh, if I had to pick a second one, um, I don't know, because my mind usually goes blank for these kinds of questions. Um, I think the, I I would say if, if we had to, like, if we're gonna be strict with the science fiction, you know, whatever. Um, the Expanse series was amazing, very, very long, but very, very, very good. Um, so

Bekah: 06:10

That's a TV show too, right?

Dan: 06:12

Yeah, they made a TV show of it. I, I watched a little bit of it, it was fine. Um, I don't know, I don't know if they've finished the whole thing or, or not. I, my Emily was not that interested in it and so we just, you know, I don't watch a lot of TV by myself, so it just kind of fell off the wayside. But the books are, are, are so good. Um, so that would be, uh, yeah, that'd be my answer. Star Wars First Expanse second.

Jörn: 06:35

Okay. Hi, I'm Jörn. I, uh, work at compose.us and, um, I work as a web developer and doing all sorts of stuff because I'm also the founder of that company. And, uh, At another company before. And yeah, always web related programming stuff. Um, my favorite science fiction movie, I think I have to copy Dan because I, I don't really know. Um, like I, I love watching, um, science fiction and fantasy movies and, um, like everything there, but Star Wars was also the first thing on my mind because, it was the, uh, childhood experience, I guess.

Dan: 07:23

Yeah,

Jörn: 07:24

Yeah.

Dan: 07:25

exactly.

Bekah: 07:28

Well, that's awesome. Welcome Jörn. We are happy to have you here with us and we always like to get started with your origin story and we're gonna do things slightly different this season. Um, we're gonna start with one word. that describes your tech journey. And then, then I'm gonna have you tell us a little bit more about how you got to where you are. So what's your one word?

Jörn: 07:54

Um, well, it's, uh, I, I guess dream job. There's just technically two words, but yeah, I, I have to admit that, um, I actually always wanted to be a, um, like with programming and, um, my, my really first dream job wasn't like policemen or, astronaut or something, but it was actually video game tester because I played video games like Alley Cat as a, as a three-year-old. So I wanted to, to, um, play these games all the time. And then I figured out really, really fast that I wanted to create my own game, so video game programmer, so I could test them and create them. that's way more awesome. So my whole life was more like, okay, how do I program, how does that work? And somehow out of that I got way more interested into programming itself, what you can do with it. And uh, it led me to a lot of different things. And now I'm trying to create nice experiences for people and, uh, yeah, especially on the web cause. Have like the biggest audience, I guess.

Bekah: 09:12

what was your learning experience like?

Jörn: 09:15

So, um, yeah, it, it wasn't really nice because nobody really could help me with, uh, programming. So my parents, well, they had the computer obviously, but, um, they didn't program themselves. And, um, my, my uncle gave me like a big box of. Of floppy disks and I tested all of them out and tried things like, okay, how does this work? How does that work? Got a manual for MS. Dos so I could write my own text adventure. That was like my very first thing that I did. And the text adventure worked by use CD into different folders where you then could read like the next part of the story, which was. Weird. I think at that time as a, as a boy, and, um, later, I, I had in school, um, some vet development, well, not really course, but there, there was an art teacher who, um, created like a website and, um, made me look into that and how that works. Then we used Macromedia, um, director, which is like the predecessor of Flash, I think. And um, there we created things like, uh, little games for, uh, CD ROM for the school that they, that they put out there, um, which was refund to, to work on these kind of things. I then got a manual for C. So I could actually create a real program for the first time in my life, but I couldn't do it because I didn't understand what is a compiler, what does all of that mean? Because the book was completely in English that I got from a parent, from a, uh, from a friend. and, um, well, he just gave me the book here. If you know English, you can do it If you don't, well that's it. That's all the help I can give you. And, uh, yeah, so it took me quite a while to, to actually get into, uh, into deeper programming. And that worked only because we got internet when I was a teenager at some point. And then we got, um, like I could create some, some. Chats and stuff like that, like guest books and things like this in Pearl went to a php, all the web related stuff, they maintained a browser game for like these, these idle. um, browser games where you say like, okay, I'm, I'm clicking here to build something, and then you have to come back in two hours until it's done And uh, yeah, it was actually a really nice fantasy game. We had a good community about like, uh, 1000 people were playing that. And, um, then, um, yeah, we, we also, we still, um, Know each other. Like there is still some groups of people who are talking about this. We were sharing like, uh, like holiday, um, vacations together, like we had, we had a small, uh, small group of friends basically established from that. Um, yeah, then studying and uh, there I really learned programming. And got into, like, I, I wanted to create games for, um, inside of planes actually, like, so that the first class customer can play a poker game against someone in economy class.

Bekah: 13:20

That's

Jörn: 13:20

And, uh, we, we saw that there, there was basically these, um, um, these, these. Uh, how do you call it? Uh, in inside the, the plane, um, inside the aircraft. Um, they, they wanted to create like a network and have everything on the network, like videos and, and all of that, obviously. And you should be able to do not only video or streaming entertainment, but actually interactive entertainment. Then we want to get in. So, um, we, that means, uh, me and a friend who I met in university. So we founded a company and tried to get involved into that and, uh, yeah, it somehow didn't work out for the planes, but we created other multiplayer games with HTML5 at a time where it was. and Roy two was like the latest thing. So it was really hard to get a performance HTML five game out there, And yeah, we created different things like this, but somehow all of that was more like, okay, we could do the technical stuff. but it was, uh, hard for us, for us to sell actually. So we, um, we ended up doing more and more projects and, uh, got enough and good money from doing more and more projects, and that's how I ended up like in an agency kind of business. And yeah, at some point I decided, rid of that, um, and want to go back into some, some kind of product business. And, um, we or I, I decided to, to quit the. that company, it's still running, so they are still doing something. But, uh, without me, they are, I think around 15 people still. So I was working out for them, but I wanted to do something new and, um, I wanted to help more like the, the, in the government sector, like we have seen that there is so little. New things, innovative things, it's um, not really user friendly. Every time you have to interact with the government, with a town hall, whatever, then it's always, uh, a little bit hard. And we decided we want to make this better. So we started to create little programs that, um, should help. like the citizens and the people who are working in a city, um, to, to like, um, yeah, have, have more, um, or a better view, a better overview of the city and can, can do better things basically. Yeah. So that's my, where, where I ended up now.

Bekah: 16:42

That's pretty awesome. So you've been a founder. Pretty early on in your career, it seemed like that was the path that made most sense for you. Do you, was that like a decision that you made or did it just always seem like a natural fit for you?

Jörn: 17:00

Um, so I, I actually didn't know that there is this career path of, um, founding a company until, uh, during my studies like. um, when I was, um, so I studied quite a long time. So the first thing that I did was, uh, studying in one city at the university. And we had like a math professor who was really, really bad. Um, I. So, so I always say like, he, he was talking faster than Eminem reps and, um, he was saying things like, okay, this is, this is so easy. You can read it in the script. And then you read their script and then you saw like the, the proof of that is trivial, but no answer to your questions basically. So it was really hard to follow and, um, I, I just didn't manage it so, then I was a little bit depressed, like, okay, what should I do now because I can't get my computer science degree? That's what I thought. So, um, I got an internship with Luhan Systems in Toronto. So I worked on something for, Air Canada with them and uh, was basically a software tester. During that time, I could create scripts and um, yeah. Accelerated our testing processes, like quite a bit like, was like, uh, a two week long process of checking two different lock files with a couple of gigabytes. Um, and, um, creating an Excel file out of that. So you could basically see what, what were the differences. and that improved the testing process from like these two weeks of manual looking at these lock files into a 20 minute process. So it was really great and everybody liked that and they wanted to actually hire me. And I said, well, if I do that now, I'm probably not getting, um, anywhere like there, there will be a fixed point where I can't. over it. So if, if I stay at that company and, um, so I thought, okay, I'll try that with a computer science degree again, in a different, uh, kind of university, uh, uni, university of Applied Sciences, and I could actually do that there. But we had this one term, um, well one semester where we had to, um, basically. in a company as an intern, and I already had this experience, so I didn't really want to do the same thing again or something like that. And I was, uh, still maintaining that browser game and I wanted to get this to a next level. So I, um, I said, okay, what do I have to do in order to get this into, into something that I can work on this. and, um, basically still tell you my professors, um, that I'm doing like an internship during that semester. And, um, I had to incorporate, uh, well in general it's called fine. I'm not sure how it's, how it's called in English. Um, it's, it's not a real company. It's more like a, um, Like a club, sports club or something. Um, but just for that game. So we incorporated that and then I could basically get there as an intern and, uh, work on that stuff. And, uh, yeah, I, I did that this one semester. They said everything's fine. Great. Cool.

Dan: 21:06

So you were an intern at your own, at your own company.

Jörn: 21:09

Yeah, basically

Dan: 21:11

That's awesome.

Jörn: 21:12

But in order to know how to incorporate, um, I had to ask someone at the university who was doing like these, um, like helping people to found their own companies and. Well, I talked to him. I don't want to own my own company. Like I think that's way too involved. I just want to do that small little thing. So he told me what to do there, but I was in this newsletter now and he wouldn't let me go. Like he was always pushing me into like, you are the kind of person that is a founder and you should just accept it, that you are. You're doing things all the time and you want to. Things your own way. So you are actually that kind of personality to do that. And I, um, well, it didn't occur to me until, well, he told me like multiple times and I have seen that buildings things from the ground up is really fun and I really like it. But yeah, it's, it's also very involved so. Work late and long and all of that. So yeah, I don't know, but it's, it's fun still. So,

Bekah: 22:30

what do you think some of the biggest challenges have been in founding your own companies?

Jörn: 22:36

um, How to, how to say, I think bureaucracy is, uh, something that I really hate. I know that it's necessary, but I really, um, hate if you have to read through like this, this, uh, lawyer language, um, that that's very, um, energy draining. Um, I think many people have struggled with finding other people, and I think that somehow works out for me. Um, like I, I wouldn't found my own company just by myself. Like I, I need other people. Um, and I, I need other people who have different interests so that we can share the workload basically, and, um, try to, um, to, to get better at everything basically. And, uh, yeah, but really the, the hardest, hardest is probably just the. all, all around it. Like the, all the lawyer stuff, Texas and all of the things that is not about building the product, doing something around the, the product or, or whatever you do, actually.

Dan: 24:10

So do you try to find a founder or a partner, whatever, that can do that stuff and not much of the building stuff or like what, like what, what, you know, how, how do you, or do you try to like learn that stuff, you know, anyway, you know what I mean?

Jörn: 24:26

so, uh, the, the person that I told you about who, um, who gave me that, Hey, you should phone your own company. Um, he, uh, this, this counselor, basically, he said that, um, he started with economics and now he thinks like, Bad idea to, um, just do the business administration and then try to get into tech, for example, to build your own stuff. He would very much like it, way more to, um, study computer science, do something like this so that he can build something. Because all the stuff that he learned, he said that's something that you can get on your, um, in, in your head anyways. And. Actually, you don't, you don't get around this at all. Like you, you can't just say like, okay, someone else is doing that for me. Like all the, all that part because in the end you will still be personally responsible for whatever you are doing or not doing, basically. So, um, I think it's more like I. Always looked into, into people who can help me more with the things that I'm not that good at. Um, but just for taxes and things like this, I think we, um, or everyone that I, that I worked with, was more on, on the agreement that, uh, we let that do like a tax, uh, consultancy, for example, help us with this. then, um, yeah, all, all of these things we try to outsource basically

Dan: 26:20

Yeah, sure. Yeah.

Jörn: 26:21

but yeah, it's, it's costly, but I think, um, it's way better to have a better and, um, bigger, um, product then, um, try to save some little money there.

Bekah: 26:41

Yeah, there was a podcast that I listened to a couple of years ago and it was talking about, um, I can't remember how they framed it, but it was kind of relationships and so they examined different relationships, uh, and it, there were people who were married, there were people who were co-founders. There were people who were on teams together, but they were saying like, all of those relationships kind. you, you function within similar roles, right? And like complementarity was a really big part of that. And I think that, you know, that's important in that founder journey and, or you know, whatever journey you are working with other people or teams of people. But then as part of that, like being able to recognize like this is. Something that, that we should outsource to someone else. It makes more sense long term to be able to make that decision and maybe spend that extra money rather than, uh, spending that time trying to do it ourselves. I think that's a really, it can be a hard decision to make, but a really smart one.

Jörn: 27:46

Yeah. I, I, I guess so. Like I, I think. One, one thing that I, that I learned also was, um, okay, if you, if you have shares at a company and like, if you can sell that company for, let, let's pretend like, uh, 1000 euros, then you will get your shares from that if you get someone else. Like you, you have 100%, you get 1000 euros for it. Basically, if you have 50% shares, you get, uh, 500, uh, euros from it if someone else has 50. But if the other 50% give you like an extra boost so you can sell it for 10,000, you will end up with 5,000 euros instead of 1000 euros. So it's a way better deal. So, um, if you, if you can find people who can, um, make your company better, um, in, in that regard, um, it will, it will help you in the long run as well. So I think it always makes sense to, to focus on the things that. work out well and try to improve the company itself instead of, um, trying to like save a little bit here or there instead. But yeah, you can't always, um, say, okay, I'm not going to save on that or no.

Bekah: 29:27

Yeah. What is the size of your company? Right.

Jörn: 29:31

Um, so we are six people right now. and, um, but well to working students and, uh, the rest, full-time, um, two founders basically. And, uh, yeah, we are looking to, um, well just, get the projects done that we currently have for our, uh, our current thing. But then, uh, try. to focus on products again. So I don't think that we are going to, to, um, look for investment money. So, um, we kind of like this bootstrapping mode cause you are actually forced to always, um, create value and, um, if, if you have this investment money where you can say, okay. we are all safe now. Then you probably lose a little bit of this energy of, okay, well I have to, I have to create, well, you know, because I need that money and I only get that money from customers and not from somewhere So, um, it kind of makes sense, I think. It's may, maybe later. It could make sense if you, if you have a real product where you want to get a really big marketing budget or something, um, or try to expand in a different area where you don't have really any connection to yet. Um, but yeah, I, I think the, the bootstrapping thing, uh, just makes sense cuz you have to work more.

Dan: 31:17

So the plan would be to kind. When you've moved over back over to products, would you kind of keep some contracts or, you know, still do some contract work to keep paying the bills? Or are you guys kind of just saving up enough that you can focus entirely the entire company on, product, product work,

Jörn: 31:36

It's a, it's a good question,

Dan: 31:40

if it's a, if it's a secret plan, you don't, you don't have to, you don't have to, you know, reveal

Jörn: 31:43

No, no, no. Um, it's, it's definitely, uh, definitely we will, um, keep on doing, um, projects, um, just because we, we won't be able to, um, completely lose that. I guess I, I think we will have, after this project right now, we should have enough runway to. I have a few months of focus work on the product, but still, I don't think that you can create a product that fast with that much, um, monthly recurring revenue, so fast and easy that, um, you can sustain a company for, for a long time, like, or right away basically. I think it's, it's really hard to, to get. But the, uh, a good lesson that you can learn from this, uh, y Combinator startup school kind of thing. They, they always say like, okay, the, the biggest issue for startups or the, the biggest thing that you need to do is, or concentrate on, is to not die. Just don't die as a company. And so many things work out. I think if you, if you do something and you find out, okay, that is not financially sustainable, you have to stop it, otherwise you, you will die and yeah.

Dan: 33:16

Yeah, I think, I think that's really cool. I, it reminds me of, uh, and I mean lots of people have done it, but, um, 37 Signals are, I, I guess they just changed their name to Basecamp. But, you know, the Basecamp folks did the same thing. You know, they, they did it, they started out just purely as a client company. And then, um, well, I think they made Basecamp because, for internal use, honestly. And then they decided, you know, and then they were like, Hey, we should, we should probably, we should just make this a full on product. But, um, I, I, I. No, I appreciate that approach a lot. You know, and I think that's a smart way, I like the way you said it cuz there's, there's a lot of trade-offs of taking investment money. Um, and you hear about some of them, you know, I mean, we, you relinquish some control and all that stuff. But the, what you said about the energy, I, I think I, I really appreciated that how, how you get this big influx of money and you lose all that urgency and the, and the, you know, kind of day-to-day stuff. I think that's, it makes a lot of sense to me anyway.

Jörn: 34:10

Well, sometimes I think it, it would be great if you

Dan: 34:13

Well, sure,

Jörn: 34:14

have that right like it can stress you out quite a bit. But yeah, I, I don't know. Like, um, once you have a big, um, client contract for example, and you, you got it and you know that you will be like, for the rest of the year you are totally booked, whatever, and it works out for your company. As a whole, then that's so, like, that's you who has done this, right? So it's way more powerful than having someone else do that for you. And yeah, I, I think it energizes you a lot more to, to get there.

Bekah: 35:00

You are a fully remote company, right?

Jörn: 35:03

Yes, I, the first company wasn't fully remote. Um, this one now is, and I kind of like it. Um, but we are doing that only with, um, in inside of Germany.

Bekah: 35:17

Mm-hmm.

Jörn: 35:18

Because of, as I said before, the we are outsourcing everything to tax consultancy, for example. And they told us if you want to have other people from other countries, that will cost you a lot more. And we thought like, okay, well there are enough people living in Germany who can help us for now. But yeah, I, I think also I made the experience with, uh, different time zones. It can be a little bit tricky also in the, in the current, um, well the, the current industry that we are in, like public administrations, it's uh, basically always only German. So we, um, we need people who can speak and understand German in this regard. and, um, yeah, that's, that's basically what we are, uh, working with right now. So it's, uh, it would be hard to, to change this, but it's, it's not from the table, so I would definitely say okay, if we find someone really good for a task that we really need help with, then um, we are definitely open for anything there. But yeah.

Bekah: 36:40

And when you founded the company, it was a couple years prior to the pandemic. Right. And then, Moved into the pandemic, and I know I talked to a lot of founders who really found that time to be challenging or maybe that was where they ended their business. Um, what was that experience like for you?

Jörn: 37:02

Okay, so, um, the, the start of the pandemic is still, uh, really. Um, tough time for me because like, it happened a lot of stuff like was the, like the, the week where there was the first lockdown in Germany the week before we got our daughter. So my, my first child. and, um, it was a Thursday and on Monday there was the lockdown. So my wife got out of the hospital on, on Monday with the child. Um, it was lockdown day and the day before our daughter was born, her father died. So there was really, uh, a weird situation like it's three very. Uh, hardcore things that, that happen at the same time. So I really didn't have to, um, I, I didn't, or I couldn't really think of lots of, um, stuff around that, right. So I'm, I wasn't, um, I wasn't really thinking too much about, okay, how. How is, uh, this going to, to change anything because we were still like, okay, our company is, is working. We still have our clients. Um, we had issues then with, um, like some, some projects that we were really thinking that, um, that they will, um, come, didn't come. Basically like a lot of other client companies were. Mainly saying, okay. Um, we are not going to do that anymore. We were already, um, well we, we already said before the pandemic hits that we want to, uh, focus more on these public administrations, but we still did client work for private companies, so basically building web applications for, for bigger companies there. So, um, We try to, to get into, into different things that, uh, worked during the pandemic. Like there, there were a couple of applications that tried to help with the pandemic for, for example. So we, um, made contract work for them and um, yeah, had different things like this, but. I don't know. We just focused on do not die the whole time. So in, in all the senses, So Kit do not die. My wife don't die to depression or something. Company don't die because we all need money. And um, yeah, so.

Bekah: 40:14

That's really intense, that That's a lot. Um, hoping things that are feeling better now, maybe hopeful.

Jörn: 40:24

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. No, it's, uh, it, it's been, uh, two years now. So I think, um, we are, we're getting, we are getting somewhere again. Also, I'm very optimistic, like I'm ex extremely optimistic all the time, so I always thought of this like, this will going to be hard and, or this is hard, but it will end at some point in time. So I just have to, to get through this and then at some point it will get better and it will feel it once it's there. So, um, I think that helps a lot. And, uh, yeah, I don't know, my, my best man told me, um, that he, he finds it interesting how I can get from, from these experiences and just get back up and say, and say like, okay, well then let's do it differently, if it doesn't work out that way, basically. But, uh, never, never, uh, give up and try to like, I, I don't know. What, what should you do? He would say like, okay, it doesn't work out. Okay, well then find something else. I guess So you have to, anyways.

Dan: 41:49

I feel like that, uh, attitude is, Seems like really, really important for a founder, for a good founder, you know, um, being able, uh, you know, everything that I've read and the people that I follow that do this, you know, talk about like how failure is part of this process, you know, and, and, and a lot of, uh, y you can't always count on everything working out exactly right. You know, and so being able to pick yourself up and say, okay, let's try something different and not just quit, you know, like, not rage quit or, or keep trying to pound in the same. That's not working, you know, other people, I mean, I've, I've seen that happen too. You know what I mean? And I think, uh, I think that seems like a really good and healthy, uh, attitude for, for somebody that's wants to do, you know, you know, this sort of thing. I think that's cool.

Jörn: 42:34

I think it helps. Yes. But yeah, I, I also believe that the, the team itself, um, needs to, needs to be something, right? Like the, the team needs to be good. I don't think that one person alone can, can do. like really big things you always need a team for, for that. Even if it's like, okay, people are saying something in a meeting and then this one person can connect all these ideas and say, okay, our ideas know this. You know, like if, if you don't have the team around you who are talking. Really good things or creating impulses that you can use, then you won't get there. We will, I, I don't think that you, that you can actually create something great if you, if you're just for yourself alone without these external impulses there. And, uh, yeah, if you want to create something quick, then you probably also need a couple of other people who can help you with.

Dan: 43:46

Since you're our, uh, fully remote, um, team, like what are some ways that you foster that sort of. That's sort of like idea making and, you know, communication and things like that. Like do you do daily standups? Do you, do you know, what kind of stuff do you do,

Jörn: 44:03

we, we do and we do it especially because like, I have to get up at some point in the morning so it's, it's more like this, uh, trying, um, trying to get me out of bed more or more in the morning because of, um, I'm, I'm a very, like you have seen me in the co-working room around like 3:00 AM. during the week sometimes. And this is not, uh, not really the, the way that it, uh, should work. And I'm definitely not like the, the, uh, role model for how you should work. I guess. It's, it's more this, uh, and try to, to have everybody be healthy and, and do their things that. that work out for them. But for me, sometimes it just works out best if I work late in the night, but then maybe the next day I sleep a couple of hours during the day. Doesn't, doesn't really matter that much there. So, um, as long as the, as long as the work that I do is still, uh, working out. And, um, yeah. As you, as you said to, to create these impulses. Yeah, definitely. We have, uh, our dailies and, um, we, we have meetings to, to talk about things like this. Um, like where we, where we do this, we also, um, Had workshops where we just gathered together. Um, so we still have some rooms to, to go some if, if we want to or need to. I mean, right now we are focusing more on the client projects, but while the client being a bigger public administration right now, so, um, we are just trying to, to do our best work there, but it doesn't really. Like this creative impulses there

Dan: 46:12

Yeah, sure.

Jörn: 46:12

right now, So when, when you, when you just have to like, okay, do that work. And we, we know that it's going, it's going to, to pay, pay our bills, basically. But um, yeah, once we, once we have this, We will definitely have another meeting and another more strategic approach towards our products. Again, so always or that, depends on what our current, uh, work mode is.

Dan: 46:45

I like that. I don't know if you are able to, but are you able to share what your sort of next, like the product thing is that you are hoping to move? Or is that, uh, it's okay if it's secret. You don't Yeah. You don't have to

Bekah: 47:00

it is top secret, you should still tell us anyway,

Dan: 47:03

yeah. Or you could tell, you could tell us

Bekah: 47:04

that you heard it first on the Virtual Coffee Podcast.

Jörn: 47:07

No, no, it's, it's not, it's not secret. So we are building, um, like a, um, a damage reporter kind of, um, product. But, um, so basically every, um, every city has, has something like this already. And you would think like, okay, well why should you build something like that? And the. The thing is, what we want to do is we want to create like smaller products to get inside of the public administrations to teach them that like digital products. Are something that can actually be good and you, you, you can do something with it. So our product is not really focusing on the citizen, like, okay, it will be easy for a citizen to report a damage somewhere, or like the garbage trash cans are, um, spilled over at the playground. So you want to report that you do that through their website. But usually it's like, okay, there's going to be some mail to, to the public administration and then they say, okay, well maybe we'll do that when we will do something about that. But they don't really care too much about what, what this means in general. Like if there are multiple reports of that in the same area, maybe they want to tell the police that they. for maybe some teenagers doing weird things every weekend, basically. And you can see that if you, um, if, if you have some kind of mechanism to, to track these things a little bit more easily. So, um, we are building products like this in order to, um, to show them. As the public administration, you have new possibilities. Now you have, um, more things that you can do with that. And we want to use these smaller products to get into the, okay, what can we do to, to get bigger, like into bigger projects that you want to tackle. You want to show them. All of the bigger projects are failures. If you talk and if you have trust in, in the people who are building that with you. And I think there is a really big problem right now. Um, when you, when you hear stories about, okay, what, where's the tax money going? Right? People are building. um, projects or doing projects for, for the government, they use lots of money, and in the end you get something. Well, they could have used an Excel sheet for that you know, that, that's how it feels like when you, when you're a taxpayer there. And I think the, the thing that we want to, to do is more like, okay, we want to customize. Things really to, to the administration so that it really makes sense. And it's not necessarily just an Excel sheet basically, but, um, you should, you should really have like a good, well thought out and connected experience. In, in all of what you, what you do. But we want to grow into that and not like, okay, we will build something and then take it because that won't work. Especially not as a small company. So it's more like, okay, we are testing, uh, different things with different small products, and then we will, um, eventually get somewhere, I guess. and it already landed us some, some of these projects. So, um, it kind of works out, I think

Bekah: 51:31

Nice.

Dan: 51:32

I think that's awesome. I, yeah, it sounds very complicated and it sounds like a lot of talking and bureau and bureaucracy, which I think you said you didn't like at the beginning of the, the podcast, but

Jörn: 51:43

Yes, yes.

Dan: 51:44

I, as a taxpayer and as, as a, um, you know, Citizen of a of, of, yeah. Of a human being. I, I think that's great. I am all, all for that. And I think your approach sounds really cool too because, you know, you hear about, um, I think the traditional experiences I've come near and, and I've never worked with government contracts or anything, but is, is like they say, oh, we need this thing and put out a request, you know, and people bid on it and all that stuff. And that, I think is usually a recipe for disaster. point, it's too late. Right? because they've probably decided the wrong thing that they need. You know, I, we deal with this a lot with our client work, um, where a client will come and say, Hey, we need X. You know, they, they've talked or whatever for their company and they're like, we need this thing, you know, and they're trying to hire it. And, um, last times with sprockets, what we do is we get in and learn about the thing and they're like, well, you don't actually, like, maybe you need this eventually, but this is what you need first. And it sounds like exactly what you're talking about, like, One of the, like easiest ones was a, there's a company that builds, um, decks, uh, you know, for the back of your house. And, um, they needed a website, you know, and they came, we need a website, like we're not, you know, we're not getting leads or whatever. And they made fancy decks and like expensive ones for like nice houses and. Uh, it turned out like, well, you, you didn't need, like, the, the first thing that they needed wasn't like, people aren't Googling them or whatever, you know, like they're never gonna like find them. What you need is like, your neighbor gets a really nice deck, well, those, like their neighbors are the ones that you know, that want to buy a deck. Right? And so first thing they did was buy, uh, we, we convinced 'em to get truck, like big, big wrap decal wraps for their trucks so that everybody knows when they're getting a new deck that like, this is the company that get it, you know, in their, their business. Like immediately increased. You know, it was just a small thing. It was like not a huge investment. It was just like five or something, you know. And I, and eventually we did website you know, but at that point it was like, okay, now, now we need to like, you know, but it's still, you know, um, lots of times. My, I guess my point is, lots of times the company or the, or the, in, in your case, the government agency doesn't actually know exactly what they need. They have decided like, there is a hole there, there's something wrong. But at that, like at the point where they're like doing a request for like, for, what's it called? A request. Something, whatever it is, I can't remember what the acronym Uh, but at that point, they're asking for the wrong thing lots of times, you know? Uh, and so do I think what you, you've like identified this need and it's a small thing, you know, it's like, it's not a huge, like, we're gonna redo your whole, your whole everything, you know? Um, I think it's a great approach.

Jörn: 54:32

I mean, we are, we are working for like bigger companies that work for the government, like. Having really big project for the government, you can't really get there, get in there easily. So you work with other companies that work for other companies that work for other companies who do all the, or get the project basically. And, um, then you find out that nobody really knows what, what everybody needs, you know, like, and it's, it's really hard to. to, um, to get like, so, so we are at the base level then talking to the people who need to interact with that product. In the end, we, we talk to them and we find out that they don't really know what, what they will get because they are not actually involved into the buying process. we need to find out what they really need in order to make the product like the best fit. And, um, yeah, sometimes it's, it's not really easy to say, like, okay, um, this is going to be the, like, will it be the same as, as what? The buying process basically said it would be or will it not? I honestly, I, I can't always tell. Because I, I think sometimes you just don't need to, to sell something like, like just as you said with the tech company, I had a similar experience with, uh, someone who wanted to move their block from a privately hosted WordPress instance into blog blogger.com because he heard that you can host on blogger.com for free. And he was paying 500 Euros for his really big, uh, WordPress blog to some private company, and I told him no, just move it to wordpress.com itself. And it will cost like 50 bucks per month maybe for the traffic that you have instead of 500. So you will save a lot of money and you don't need to to get me to try and rebuild everything that you already have into your blogger.com, something which is really limiting your abilities and it's not great. But he has heard that we were. I'm doing that for another, like a satirical newspaper, which is, uh, quite famous in, in Germany, which has like 300,000 visits per day, which is really a lot. And um, yeah, it's hosted basically for free on blogger.com. It's, yeah, the tech stack is really, is Theus. There's their content. But it worked And I, I told them like, no, I'm, I'm not going to work for you. You, you move to something else and just save money there and don't do that. And I think that builds trust. That is the trust that they will tell other people that if I ever really need something, then I'll come back to you anyways. So.

Dan: 57:56

Absolutely. And there's like, if he's lucky that he came to you first, cuz there, I'm sure there's plenty of people that will, that would just say, okay, well cool blogger.com, the client asked me to do this. Here's my, here's my invoice. You know what I mean? And

Jörn: 58:07

Yeah.

Dan: 58:08

you know, um, so I think,

Jörn: 58:10

And then they will say what? That much

Dan: 58:13

Right, right.

Jörn: 58:16

Yeah.

Bekah: 58:16

All

Dan: 58:17

hand type. Oh, sorry. I was just continuing on the joke. It's okay. I'm, I'm done.

Bekah: 58:22

make you not be funny. So, um, all right, before we wrap up, I've got two more questions for you. And the first one is, what is one word that describes you

Jörn: 58:35

Optimistic.

Bekah: 58:36

optimistic? Oh, I like it. And how do you think that's impacted your journey to where you are?

Jörn: 58:47

Well, um, with every failure. Failure or every failed attempt to something, I could just. Get back up and, uh, work through it, I guess. So

Bekah: 59:03

great. Well, thanks so much Jörn for being with us here today and sharing your story.

Jörn: 59:09

Thank you for having me.

Dan: 59:11

Thanks hearing

Jörn: 59:13

was a experience.

Dan: 59:19

Yeah.

Jörn: 59:26

Well, you, you should handle your expectations, right? You be low. So you are always like, happy If something good have thought of that. If I would say, say like, Hey, this is the best thing I ever did, and then something negative comes along my way, then I can't be optimistic anymore. So

Dan: 59:47

So true,

Bekah: 59:49

there. You heard it first. All

Dan: 59:53

All right.

Bekah: 59:54

We'll talk to you soon.

Dan: 59:55

Bye Jörn!

Jörn: 59:56

Okay. Thank you. Bye-bye.

Dan: 00:01

Thank you for listening to this episode of the Virtual Coffee Podcast. This episode was produced by Dan Ott and Bekah Hawrot Weigel. If you have questions or comments you can hit us up on Twitter at VirtualCoffeeIO, or email us at podcast@virtualcoffee.io. You can find the show notes, sign up for the newsletter, check out any of our other resources on our website VirtualCoffee.io. If you're interested in sponsoring Virtual Coffee you can find out more information on our website at VirtualCoffee.io/sponsorship. Please subscribe to our podcast and be sure to leave us a review. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next week!

The Virtual Coffee Podcast is produced by Dan Ott and Bekah Hawrot Weigel and edited by Dan Ott.