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Kai Katschthaler - Technical Writing & Neurodiverse Learning

Season 7, Episode 3 | February 16, 2023

In today's episode, Dan and Bekah talk to Kai Katschthaler about their experience growing their technical writing career and creating content.

Kai Katschthaler

Kai is a tech content specialist and mental health advocate. They run Taboola Rasa, a mental health awareness project that seeks to erase the stigma connected to mental health.

Show Notes:

This week Bekah and Dan sat down with Kai Katschthaler, a technical writer and content creator, about their creation process, finding learning approaches that work for them, and mentoring others.

Links:

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Transcript:

Bekah:

Hello and welcome to season seven, episode three of the Virtual Coffee Podcast. I'm Bekah, and this is a podcast that features members of the Virtual Coffee community. Virtual Coffee is an intimate group of developers at all stages of their coding journey, and they're here on this podcast sharing their stories and what they've learned. We're here to share it with you. Here with me today is my co-host, Dan

Dan:

Yo, what is.

Bekah:

the Sky.

Dan:

sky. I like it. Um, how's it going,

Bekah:

it's fantastic. It's just an amazing day here.

Dan:

Is it, it's really, really cold here. so it was, uh, yeah, it's 17 degrees Fahrenheit, so, uh,

Bekah:

47 here.

Dan:

Really? No, you're lying to me.

Bekah:

It's not, it's really

Dan:

Bekah's always lying to me.

Bekah:

I don't, I, I don't lie. I don't

Dan:

No, no, that's, that's me. I'm the Eagle Scout. You're the non-Eagle Scout

Bekah:

Oh, we all know about Eagle Scouts and what kind of people they turn out to be.

Dan:

as soon as I said that, I knew you were gonna bring that up. Bekah found. Actually, I might have found it, I don't know. Remember I was saying about how Eagle Scouts are all honorable and never lie, and we found an article just

Bekah:

are a lot of murderers that are Eagle Scouts,

Dan:

Yeah. Major crimes committed by Eagle Scouts. And that was sad. And some people, sometimes people fall off the, you know,

Bekah:

Eagle Scout Trail,

Dan:

the path. Yeah. The trail. Exactly. Yes. So, you know, what are you gonna do?

Bekah:

We really derailed this really quickly.

Dan:

Uh, yeah. It is kind of our, our way, you know, uh, I think it's kind of apro. Um, anyway, today we are talking with Kai. Kai is a tech content specialist and mental health advocate. Um, they've been a member for a while and very active in the community, and we had a really great conversation.

Bekah:

Yeah. I really appreciate their input on the learning experience about mental health, about finding different paths into tech. I think that we all come from different perspectives and to think about the different ways, think about the different journeys that we take to get here can create a hopeful space for people who are thinking about coming into tech.

Dan:

Yeah, absolutely.

Bekah:

We start every episode of the podcast, like we start every Virtual Coffee, we introduce ourselves with our name, where we're from, what we do, and a random check-in question. Our question today is, what is your favorite story with a happy ending? We hope you enjoy this episode. My name is Bekah. I'm a technical community builder from a small town in Ohio, and my favorite story with a happy ending, I'm gonna go with the Princess Bride just because that's a fun book and a fun movie, and I enjoy it every single time.

Dan:

You stole mine. I gotta stop lady. You gotta stop going first cuz you're always, it's the worst. Um, the Princess Bride is amazing and it, that's, that's like, anyway, it's a good choice, obviously. Uh, okay. I'm Dan. I live in Cleveland. I do computer things. Uh, yeah. Favorite story with that? You know, I don't know. Um, I don't know, does Star Wars have happened? It's hard. It's hard cuz now Star Wars has all of this like extra stuff, you know what I mean? Uh, you know, like, so if I just think of Return to The Jedi, it's mostly happy, but you know, then all these things keep happening and whatever and you know, uh, I feel like everybody nowadays has to make everything all, you know, awful. Uh, I'm a

Bekah:

Not cartoons, though. Every cartoon has a happy.

Dan:

you. You think so? Cuz I don't, I don't know if that's.

Bekah:

Children's cartoons, not like adult

Dan:

Children's cartoons, Okay, uh, yay. I'm gonna go with, um, I'm gonna go with Elf cause I like that movie

Bekah:

Love.

Dan:

it's happy. So that's gonna be my answer. There's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of choices in that Christmas movie realm, but, uh, elf is like one of the best ones. So I'm going with Elf. That's, that's my answer.

Kai:

Hi, uh, my name is Kai. I am a tech content specialist, and I completely panicked at this question because if you ask a neuro divergent person their favorite anything, they will just blank, and that's what happened. But I've, but I've, but I found a solution,

Bekah:

Yay.

Kai:

which is, there are two movies that I go to when I feel sad, when I feel bad, when she needs some comfort. I'm not usually a re watcher, but Moana and Encanto both like do the trick and I guess technically they have happy endings. So I'll go with those two.

Dan:

those are, yeah, those are very good ones.

Bekah:

Yeah, those are really good choices. I recently was driving in my car with nobody else and just listening to the Encanto soundtrack because it makes me

Kai:

is, it is so good. There's, there's no highest level volume that is apt for that. It just always needs to be louder.

Bekah:

Totally agree. I also like to sing it as loud as I can too, so

Kai:

same. Same. I'm not good with the Spanish parts, but, um, I try

Bekah:

Yep, same. Well, welcome. We're really happy to have you here and the way that we always like to get started is. With your journey into where you are now, but I'm gonna ask you first to think about your developer journey and give us one word that would describe it.

Kai:

Overdue or long overdue, if I can hyphenate.

Bekah:

There you go. I like it. I like it. So now tell us this long overdue journey and how you got to this point.

Kai:

I've, I've kind of been tech adjacent for a very long time. Originally, uh, study journalism. I worked as a journalist. I worked like daily broadsheet, broadsheet newspaper kind of stuff. Um, so something entirely different, but I've always had an affinity towards, uh, games, tech, et cetera. Um, and then when I had enough of journalism for various reasons, I decided, well, PR is kind of right next door. I'll do that. And I ended up being the first, uh, PR hire ever at a very small Austrian eSports company. It was an eSports agency, and that's, that's kind of how. Like properly slid into tech. I had previously obviously like had messed around with a bit of website stuff like when I was younger, futz around with, with WordPress stuff, but nothing ever seriously, and even then for it took me another. Well, I think 15 years to properly get into it. I've spent the past 10 years or so, self-employed as a tech content specialist. Started as a copywriter and then kind of just segued into consulting with startups and the world tech startups. And my, my oldest client, um, is a SaaS provider. So yeah, I've been tech Jason for a long time and I always like to say I, I speak developer. Or that are that, you know, some of my best friends are developers, but like they are They really are We're always the people I clicked with most. And um, yeah, about six years ago, my partner side stepped into tech. They did a bootcamp back when we lived in Scotland. and still I wasn't, I wasn't coding myself. I was like, no, it's too much like math. I'm sure I can't do this. And everyone's like, no, Kai, you'll be, you'll be fine. I was like, no, no, no, no. I don't have the brain for this. And then finally, finally, when I realized I wanted to go into Dev, I was like, oh, maybe I should, maybe I should get on that coding thing now. And, uh, I did the, the Free Code Camp, uh, boot camp for web dev, which is HTML and CSS back in September. and I was hooked. I was very surprised. No one else was surprised that I really took to it Um, but I was also very surprised that it was indeed not very math-y. It was actually a lot like writing.

Bekah:

Yes.

Kai:

If I think about it, like I've been writing for such a long time, I barely think about what I do when I do it, I, I think about it when I try to help others, right? I think about coding, and then I realize that the way I think about coding is very much what I tell other people when I try to help them write better. Like you put down a structure and then you fill in the blanks, and then you fill in the details and you think of your story first, and you put that down and then the rest comes by itself. And yeah, whether you, you go. Text to edit and proofread and restructure. Sometimes you have to restructure. That's totally normal when blogging, for example, or whether you go and you, you go through your code and make it better. Like it's, it's the same thing at the end of the day. So yeah, that's, that's how I ended up where I'm now, which is. I can do HTML and css, which is not a lot, but I feel like I'm getting better at it, and the probably next step will be Python, but we'll see.

Bekah:

I really love those parallels between writing technical content and coding because my background is in English. I taught college English for 10 years and I found that same thing, and for me it kind of like took a while to make that parallel because I think I. Just wanted to get out of that space for so long. Like I was, I was done. Being a teacher, I was done with that English teacher side of myself. And then when I finally like let go of that anger I was like, oh, okay, these are kind of similar and I understand what's happening here in this context. And then actually like once I made that connection, it became a little bit easier because for those reasons that you said, like you're breaking it down, you're looking at the patterns and the structure, and you're able to see it from a different perspective.

Kai:

Yeah, and it's also, I mean, you say you tried to get away from it from, for me it's kind of, I really love like blending those two, which is why Dev appeals to me so much because it's a way to. Bring everything I've already sort of collected over the years and skills and weird skills and weird knowledge to the table, but also this new thing for me, which is coding, and it's kind of awesome how that can all kind of meld together.

Dan:

Yeah, I think, I think that's really great. Uh, I I don't know, you, you were at the beginning of your story, you were talking about how you sort of avoided, you know, avoided all the coding stuff cuz um,

Kai:

I didn't avoid it. I just never like properly learned it and I thought I wouldn't be good at it,

Dan:

Right. Avoided, avoided, like actually diving in. Right. And that's, I, I feel like that's, uh, a, that cer certainly in my personal experience, uh, and I think that this is a common occurrence with her, divergent people. Is that, that sort of thing where, where like, uh, Something is like an unknown and it, and it, and your brain does this thing where it's just like, no way. I can't, like I'm either I can't do it or I don't wanna do it or, or whatever. You know, like it, it becomes this like, I don't know, this weird block thing. Right. You know that

Kai:

Do not.

Dan:

Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. And I've had that experience so many times, you know, and, and whether it's like some piece of technology or some like thing, I avoided react for a, a real long time cuz it was just, I don't know. I just, like, I looked at, I glanced at it, read a blog post, didn't really immediately understand it completely. And so I'm like, Nope, I just, you know, I don't know. And then once you dig into it, you find that you actually like it. I, I, I feel like that that resonated with me and I, and I, and I also feel like, might resonate with other people too. I, I think it's kind, kind of common thing.

Kai:

I am really glad you said that because I recently started cuz I thought like JavaScript would be a good next step and I started looking at it and I had to fight the urge to, to quit. Because the resources I had tried didn't work and I just kept looking at different resources until I found one that didn't make me want to run away. But like that urge is there and I'm kind of relieved that I'm not alone with this,

Dan:

yeah, yeah, yeah. Big time.

Bekah:

For sure when I was learning, I was going through Free Code Camp initially, and I got to the JavaScript portion and that was like a brick wall. I could not make it through, and I thought, you know what, maybe, maybe this is not for me, until I found a different curriculum that approached it in a different way and then suddenly it was like, okay, I can handle this. It's, it wasn't ever easy, but it made more sense to me and it was. An introduction that my brain could kind of understand and ease into.

Kai:

that, that's exactly like, I also tried it with Free Code Camp cuz I was like, okay, I did the bootcamp there. I know what I dislike about Free Code Camp. Like some of their, some of the structure they force upon you within an h l file just does not work for me. But like I know that, and I, I am aware of that. I can deal with that and I'll just do the JavaScript thing there and I opened it and. What the hell? I, I just like you said, hit the brick wall and I tried exorcism and that was like less explainy, but also kind of assumed that I would know more than I did, which was zero. Um, and then I keep, I kept like looking around for different resources and finally it was Code Academy that actually worked the best for me. I don't know what you used, but now I wanna. Because maybe I should try that as well.

Bekah:

I ended up going into a bootcamp, so I went to a Flatiron School bootcamp and they had some pre-work that you could do, and once I did the pre-work, it suddenly, like all of these things started to click into place for me and that's when I kind of thought like, this is. This makes sense. And luckily I was able to get a scholarship to go there. Otherwise, you know, that wouldn't have worked out. But exploring all of the different resources that are out there, I think is really important to that learning journey because we all learn in different ways.

Kai:

Yeah. And also like different topic might require you to use a different, um, resource is what I've learned through this. Like HTML CSS that worked for me with Free Code Camp. Not ideal, but it worked. Js currently not. So yeah, I think it's a good idea to keep, keep an eye out for all these like different resources. Even if you found one that works for you with one thing, maybe for another language, you need another one, you know?

Dan:

And I imagine some of that is probably, there's different authors that. you know, those guides. I mean, I'd be, I guess you know that, so that could be part of it. And, and yeah, everybody learns completely differently. I always like hearing how, how people like prefer to learn, right? Because it's always,

Kai:

Yeah.

Dan:

my learning style is ridiculous and it's just it's,

Kai:

bet it is. I bet it is not ridiculous. What is your learning style?

Dan:

oh, I don't know. Like, I, that's the problem is I can't really describe it. I, I, I can't do videos. I can't have people talking at me. I can't like, uh, long form. Reading, you know, is honestly not even ideal for me. It, it's, it's more just like I need to just like start using my hands immediately and then

Kai:

I, I don't

Dan:

into a s i, I know, I, I, I was,

Kai:

ridiculous, then I'm also ridiculous because that's exactly how I

Dan:

yeah, yeah. I know. It's, it's like, it's, it's not ridiculous. It's just hard to describe. And also like, like I can't be like, Hey, do this. You know, it's not, um, other than saying, get to building as soon as you can, like, that works for me, you know? But after that it's just like, there's no, there's no specific, you know, resource or style or whatever that's ever really worked for me other than like trying to push through by myself. And, um, and then like I run into a specific problem and then I'm like, okay, let's go look to see how to solve like this one thing, you know? And I don't know, it, it, it has worked for me. It's, it never feels like the most efficient way. Um, and it's, it's hard to sort of translate that into. Um, advice for people often, for me anyway, it's hard for me to translate that into advice, uh, but like, or at least actionable advice, other than, um, other than getting your hands dirty, uh, for me, you know, it works and, but like I said, everybody works, uh, learns differently and some people like to have a lot more, you know, uh, a lot more like, I don't know, a plan in their head before they start doing that or whatever. And I, I get that too. So

Kai:

I think, I think we're very similar. Um, yeah, I think it's called kinesthetic learning. Like if you learned through doing, if I'm not doing it, I'm not gonna remember it. people are always super helpful with like, oh, that's this great book I read. It's like, Nope. If it's not nonfic, like it's not fiction, I'm not gonna read it and I doubt it's gonna be a fiction. Of course. Um, and people, I was like, oh, but like udemi and videos and, and I'm like, I do not learn from it. I mean, I have this one udemi course that I'm now working through, which is basically just to fill some CSS holes maybe, or whatever. I'm listening to it at like the top speed. It's, I think two times as. Twice as the top speed and I'm just zooming through it. And that's, that's the only way I can, my, my ADHD brain can handle this because Yeah. No, I feel, I feel the same way. I'm, you gotta, you gotta tell me, okay, this is a little bit you can do and then let me do it and then I'll figure it out from there. But, um, that's how I learn.

Bekah:

I really love, uh, learning through examples, but like examples that you can manipulate, right? Like if there's a sandbox in there, Expo has, um, Expo Snacks for a bunch of things and that has been really helpful to me. Anytime I'm trying to use Expo, because I can see what they're doing, I can play around with it, I can make it my own. Okay. This is, this is how this works. It's already there constructed for me, but it gives me, you know, a little bit of leadway to explore it.

Kai:

Yeah. I also, I don't know how you all feel about, um, things that feel pointless, but if, if you give me an exercise and I don't see the point of it, like of course with Free Code Camp, you have these like projects that you have to do and it's like create a product page. I'm like, I don't wanna create a product page for some. In the end, what I did to get myself through it, I created a product page. and the product was, you can, you can send my dogs pets, you can pet my dogs from afar through a form. And that's how I got myself through it. But like I wasn't, I was never gonna write like, fake documentation just through the project. I just did the basic stuff, uh, to pass the, you know, the test and that was it. I'm not proud of it, but I figure I'll need that stuff at some point when I do an actual project. I'm just not good at doing things senseless. Is my main issue.

Bekah:

I, I find like even writing blog posts, like dev related blog posts where I need to come up with a code sample, I have a really hard time like not trying to come up with some kind of meaningful project. And I know that I'll spend like way too much time. Like this is, this is not what it's about. Like the point of this blog post is not to showcase a meaningful project, it's to showcase how to utilize this code. And so then I, I was working on this project a couple months back and. it, it got really in depth, right? And like there were, there were so many different features going on, and I'm like, this is, this is all wrong. This is not how you're supposed to do this. And so then I just like restarted it. I I made one component and that was it. But it was like this whole big thing in my mind because it didn't make sense without like having this important idea that it was capturing but the wrong, the wrong important idea.

Kai:

I, I think that's a storyteller brain though, as well. Like you need the story like, but what's the story? You know, but what, what is the story And if I'm, yeah, at least doing something fun or funny helps, there's this like tribute page in the code camp thing that you have to do. And I can think of anyone real. So I made a tribute page to Han Solo.

Dan:

Oh,

Kai:

at least that used me and I looked up random Star Wars facts, you know? So, yeah, I don't know that, that that's how we get through it. I think we, we build our own stories to make the learning bearable. Like I love learning new things, but it's gotta be my way.

Bekah:

Well, and that also helps you commit those things to memory too, right? Like when you are, whether you're creating a story or hearing a story, you're more likely to remember that thing. And so I think that if you are learning and you are making it something fun for you or meaningful, or telling a story through the project that you're creating, then you're gonna be more likely to understand that. and to remember how to do it the next time, and I don't, well, I gave a talk on that yesterday, so I feel like that's undervalued.

Kai:

I totally agree with you. I, I, I guess when I, when I, you know, I started out as a journalist, copywriter, and then. Added more things sort of to my portfolio skills and at some point I just, I just called myself a storyteller, which sounds super pretentious and obnoxious, but that was kind of the best way to sum it up because whether I was writing or whether I was helping startups figure out their target group and had to structure their website and had to write the copy and had to, what kind of images to use it, it was all about telling a story and I think everything is about telling a story in the end. Everything that's good is about telling a story.

Bekah:

100% right. Smash that like button. Whatever you do when somebody says something that you 100% agree with.

Kai:

Yeah.

Bekah:

Yeah. You know, in finding that there, there's such a balance that comes with that, right? Like, um, you ever look up a recipe and they like wanna tell you the whole story of like their grandma's birth and like how they grandma seasoned their cast iron pan and then like three hours

Kai:

the one case where I don't want the story.

Bekah:

Right at least now a lot of them have like skipped a recipe. Yes, please. But it's like, it's finding that balance, I think of weaving that story and then like also giving the information that people need. Because if it's really heavy on the storytelling or it's not contextual, I think that you can tell stories through how you write your code. Um, But you, you have to find that balance in order to, um, you know, support what you're doing and your audience.

Kai:

Yeah, no, I've, I've. Definitely have that issue with, with blog posts on, like recipes and stuff. Because very often the story is also not very well told and not very, and you can tell they wanna get to the recipe, but I guess for SEO or whatever purposes, they're putting all this stuff before and you keep thinking, oh sure, our next paragraph's gonna be the no, still not the recipe. But surely now the story is, no, it's still not over. And I think it also says something about how they, like a lot of people write stories where with a good story you feel when it's, when it's getting to an end. Like when you feel like if you've got a 30 minute TV episode and you can feel when it's end, when it's about to end. Even if you don't look at the time because the story is told in a certain way and the plot points are positioned in a certain way, positioned in a certain way that you, you can just tell, you can feel it. And I think. that's also part of good storytelling. Um, you need to know when to end, even though I dunno when to end my sentences clearly.

Bekah:

I, I have the same problem. I will frequently end sentences with the word, so it's like a filler word for me. Like say a whole sentence and I'll be like, so, so I'm to do it.

Kai:

last year. Last year I gave my first talk in a very long time, and when I listened back at the recording, I realized that in the, because my, my teachers hammered it into us, not say, um, or ah, you know, as fill word. So instead of doing that, apparently now, I say now, now, All the time. And now I'm trying to not do that and I guess I'll just pick up the next filler word on the go. One day I'll, so as well at the end of a sentence, you just

Bekah:

I am sorry. I'm sorry if I pass that on to you. the world doesn't need more of that.

Kai:

different, you know, every time I

Bekah:

was just gonna start a sentence with, so, and now I am like hyperaware of all of it.

Kai:

We can fix it in post.

Bekah:

can't do it. So

Dan:

try, try using triz now. Maybe that'll work.

Bekah:

Now you're doing all of this content creation. Um, You have all of this experience. Right. And I wanna back up for a second and talk a little bit about this idea that you speak tech. I think that's what you said, and I really like to think about it in that way because I think that there are also people in tech that don't speak tech, right? Communication is can be a problem. Being able to communicate your ideas and you're doing it in a lot of different, Right, like you gave a talk last week. You are writing blog posts, you're definitely doing dev things. And so how do you approach creating that content? And, and maybe also like, what do you like the most? What are, what is most enjoyable content creation for you?

Kai:

So with blogging, I blogging has kind of lost its spark because I blogged for the same company for the past eight and a half years, and at some point I didn't get around to blogging for myself anymore. And that kind of just, just, Went away. Like I was like, you know, when you, when you some whatever you do for work, it's really hard to do that for fun as well. Um, I feel like developers are less afflicted by this, but you know, chefs, they cook all day in the kitchen. They come home, they're not interested in doing that at home. They eat peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. Um, So that's, that's how I feel a bit about blogging. But I, but I also miss it. So I actually started because everyone, I was like, you gotta learn in public, you gotta learn in public. And I was like, yes, I know, but I'm so chaotic when I try to figure stuff out that I don't wanna do this entirely in public. But I just, like, literally an hour ago, started writing a blog post about why I'm currently hard coding my website and that I don't think I am, I have lost all my marbles for doing this. And I really. Like my, my main client has always let me bring my own voice to my post and everything, so that's great. But I really enjoyed writing for myself again, which I think partly is because I've now been, so I've been taking a break in January of from work. While I transitioned from self-employment to employment, and I think just like these were two, three weeks of not blogging for work have made it much more enjoyable for me, and I feel like I'm finding my way back. That said, I also went to film school for a year, so I've, I've done that kind of kind of storytelling as well. Um, I enjoy live streaming because it's very ad hoc. It, my d h d brain likes it not having to prepare too much and just going with the flow and it's exciting. Um, same with podcasts and stuff like that. I was on a podcast last week, um, which is called Coming Out Pod, about my, um, coming out journey basically. Um, Really enjoy that. But what I think what I like most about giving talks is that I can sit down and I can take my time and write my story and refine it and like really, really. Make it not perfect, but as perfect as it's gonna get. And sometimes that's like the evening before the talk where you make the last take. I'm pretty sure you know that. I think you said something like that,

Bekah:

Yep. That was me,

Kai:

when you just, you just feel like something in the. In the way you build your talk. Like it's okay, but something isn't quite right. And for weeks, like, like with the last one for weeks, I couldn't figure it out. I knew something was wrong with my intro, but I couldn't figure it out. And then like, I think the day before my talk, I was like, now I've got it. And I changed it and it flowed. And this, this feeling is really amazing. And especially when you, when you're giving talks live and not recorded, even if it's like just online. Um, I enjoy that bit of the adrenaline and everything. So yeah, I'm currently really enjoying writing talks, which is good because I thought I was giving my next one in two months, but I found out yesterday. It's really in one month and it's a new talk that I haven't written yet, so, so that, that's great. And, uh, hilariously it's a talk about being organized with ADHD. So now I've got a really good intro into, good intro into that talk

Bekah:

That is, that is.

Kai:

So, yeah. Um, to get back to your question, I, I enjoy all kinds of different content. I enjoy the ad hoc style where you just actually talk to people. And I love interviewing people. I love talking to people and then figuring out how to tell their story as well. I've done a lot of showcase interviews and stuff like that. Um, but I also love being able to just like, sit down and create my own story and find a way to tell that because a. The talks like the talks I give are personal, um, mental health related, ADHD related. It's kind of nice to find a way to put that story into words.

Bekah:

Yeah.

Kai:

Yeah.

Bekah:

one of the things that can be hard, no matter what kind of content you're creating, is to learn how to not be precious about your content that you have on the page. Right? Like when it's in rough draft stage, that's a rough draft. And even though you might like a particular part, it might need to be cut, right?

Kai:

kill your darlings. It is terrible. I hate it

Bekah:

Yeah, it's hard. I, I have my, my talk that I gave yesterday, and so I write out the whole thing. I enjoy doing that. It helps me to focus and organize and kind of see things differently. And then as I go through, I start cutting those pieces, but I'll put them in another document. Cause I'm like, well, this might not be the end of you forever.

Kai:

Same. I

Bekah:

place for you.

Kai:

and if it's a different talk, you know, like

Bekah:

Yeah. Yeah. So is that like kind of your process? Like what does your process for content creation look like from start to.

Kai:

So, um, first of all, I don't get writer's block because the way I started out in journalism, you don't have writer's block. If you have writer's block, the paper doesn't go out the next day. So the first time I was like, oh, I dunno what to write. I think my, my editor back then was like, you just sit down, you write something and then you work on it. So that is, I've been offering one-on-ones to, uh, to devs to help them if they wanna get into writing more. and the, the first thing I always say is just put something down. Um, do not put the heading down. Like if you're writing a blog post or an article, you write the headline last. And I think that's something that people outside of journalism maybe don't always know, but it's incredibly helpful because you gotta write the story to know what like the point of the story is, and then you can create the headline. So I'm, I'm a recovering perfectionist, I would say. I think that's probably the best way to describe it. And over the years I've learned to just live with that first draft. Just put it down no matter how cringe. And, uh, just put it down, leave it, come back to it another day and put your editor's hat on and then go through it as your edit. Like, just pretend you're your editor Um, and I think that's, That's the best way. Sometimes, sometimes I sit down and write a blog post from top to bottom, and it's perfect the way it is. Like obviously editing a little bit, but like it's perfect and other times the right one. And just like with the talk, it just doesn't, it just doesn't sit well with me and I then I start, then I start futzing with the structure and pushing things up and down and around, and I try not to copy. Stuff that I wanna keep in into a different document because then I'll get confused. But yeah, I've done a, I've done a lot of command X command V. In a document, if someone were to look over my shoulder, they'd probably get dizzy. Like I've actually edited other people's work and tried to be like, gentle. And then I just like, no, just do you thing. And then they look over my shoulder and they're like, what the hell are you doing? It's like, just wait. Just wait for it. It's, it's gonna be good in the end and just need to figure out how this works. It's like a puzzle. I think sometimes, so yeah, sometimes you just write a thing and other times you have to write a structure first because you need that to, to sort your thoughts. And sometimes none of this works and you have a messed up puzzle that you have to put back together in the end or put together.

Bekah:

you've talked a little bit about mentoring other people through that journey too, and working on other, working on content with other people. So what do you think some of the most important moments for you have been as a mentor?

Kai:

I mean, I dunno if I would call as myself a mentor at this point. Um, it's just, uh, I really like when I can help people, like when I can see that, what I tell them. That to me maybe seems insignificant because I've been doing it for. 20 years at this point. Um, to me it seems insignificant, but to them it's like, oh, I had never thought of it that way, because they're not, they don't have my history and my experience in writing. So to them it's a new thing. And it's maybe the one thing that like loosens that guardian knot that they had, why they couldn't get the writing done the way they wanted to. And also sometimes, like honestly, half the time when I talk to people, they think they're so bad and they send me something and I'm. You're not actually bad. Like it's fine. You can get better, but you're not bad. I've seen bad you're not bad. And then sometimes that's all they need. Just someone to tell them that it's okay, and to give them the confidence to just do it. Like basically just what people have have done with me when I started coding. She's like, just, you're gonna be fine. Just do it. There's really nothing you can lose I just really like seeing that whatever innate thing my brain comes up with that I think surely that won't help anyone, then actually helps people. I'm like, oh, huh, interesting. Cool. Guess I did learn something in this 20 odd year com career.

Bekah:

Yeah, I think that. We often undervalue ourselves and our experiences and just kind of like what you were saying before, what works for one person or what might be meaningful for one person won't be for another person. So I think that anytime there's that self-doubt in there or thinking like this won't be helpful, it probably will be helpful to somebody. it just might not seem like that would be helpful to you because you know, maybe that's not your style or maybe there's some self-doubt that's really holding you back from seeing the value in the things that you're doing.

Kai:

Or also because I've just forgotten that 20 years ago, that has helped me as well, and it's, it's also nice to, to be reminded of how far you've come, I guess.

Bekah:

Yeah. I love that. That's super important. So, uh, right now you are about to transition into a full-time role. How are you feeling

Kai:

Part-time. Part-time.

Bekah:

Oh, part-time,

Kai:

part-time. That was

Bekah:

a not self-employed role.

Kai:

Yeah, so I, um, being self-employed in Germany is not something I enjoy, and since I've been doing the same kind of work for the past couple of years, I also kind of wanted another challenge and to segue into Dev or to sidestep into Dev, I knew that I, I would have to probably become employed. I feel really weird about it. So I start at the beginning of. First week of February. Um, and it's four days a week, luckily, and the company seems really nice, but I'm still like this teeny tiny bit. Like I'm super excited, but I'm also slightly apprehensive because the past eight and a half years when my boss was shit, it was me, you know? Um, and I was lucky enough to. Have worked in, in a pretty niche position, so I, I could really set my own rates. I didn't have to work long hours. Um, I don't think else only have to work long hours in this job. They seem really cool. But there's, um, there's also a lot of, I think, a lot of trauma involved for me with regards to employment. So the last time I was employed was. 2014. Um, and before that I, I had a really hard time finding the right jobs. Um, staying employed long enough, my ADHD always got bored with the jobs that I could get. Um, and then when I started working, self-employed, I was, uh, I knew I wanted to start my own business and I was looking for a part-time job to tide me over and like kind of start gently on the side. And all the jobs I applied for, people were like, I'm sorry, you're overqualified. Or Why do you only wanna work part-time? That's super weird. What's wrong with you? But that was all outside of the street technically. Um, and I realized, in tech, things are much better today. We so many people I know, especially integral, so many people I know work, uh, part-time in some way, shape or form. Uh, so many people working companies that are actually not toxic. Um, but still in, in my head, this like, or right down my head in my heart, this feeling is still in there of all those bad experiences, 10 years ago. That I got away from because I became my own boss. And um, so if a client seemed like a potential client, seemed they weren't gonna be good, then I wouldn't take them. I have a disclaimer on my website that says I don't work with bigots. Like I literally picked my, picked my client's chair, pick them, and. Yeah, and I think also being self-employed became part of my identity in a way of my professional identity because it's the, that, that's when I started having success in my career and building a career. And it's odd to let go of that a bit. but also it just, it was just a step. It's, it's fine. I have a portfolio career. I've done so many different things in my life, including working at a gym and making crepe and selling soup, and I was a video editor at some point, an assistant, and like, I've done so many different things. I shouldn't, I shouldn't be scared of change, but this, it feels like, like I'm giving up a teeny tiny part of my identity, which is silly, but that's

Dan:

It's not, it's not silly. It's not silly at all. I, I mean, I've been independent for, you know, I don't know, whatever it is, 15, 20 years, something like 15, whatever, long time and, um, and I totally follow what you were saying. And I've also, I mean, I've almost, I've only ever actually applied to one job, but I've, I've al I thought about it a bunch of times, you know what I mean? And it's, there's that, like, there's that part of ADHD thing that it's like, I wanna stay where I'm comfortable, but there's also the, like, I'm bored. Let's like, oh, here's a new shiny thing. You know what I mean? And I

Kai:

when you're self-employed, you can follow the shiny thing easier.

Dan:

Which is, which is yes, yes, yes. Absolutely. Uh, which is what I, one of the things I, I love about it. Um, uh, but like that being said, in the tech world, I, there's new shiny things all the time, And so even if you're, uh, working for the same, I mean, I have a client that I've had for that whole time, the 15, 16 years. With especially front end development. It's like there's, there's new shiny stuff, all the time. I was wondering what, um, you said there's something about being independent in Germany that you didn't like. Is that tax tax stuff or is it,

Kai:

Yeah, the overhead is, um, so I hated it in Austria. Um, and then we moved to Scotland and for five years, or I was blissfully like, I just forgot the bad things in Austria that are the same things that are in Germany, like in the uk I could just, I could do my own taxes. I used a, um, like the bookkeeping program I used that, I wrote my, my invoices with automatically. Um, collated everything at the end of the year. Just had to go through it, add a few things, fix a few things, and then like directly send it to the HMRC, like literally from within the program. Fantastic. Here in Germany, first of all, I was immediately push into the VAT range because so if you're in the uk, if you are a self-employed sole trader, um, so you're not a company but a sole trader, if you earn more than 82,000 pounds a year, then you have to do that. Otherwise, you don't have to do that. You're a small business owner in

Dan:

Can you tell

Kai:

uh, uh, uh, a val value add tax.

Dan:

Okay. All right, so it's just more taxes.

Kai:

It's something that goes in and comes out and actually you don't lose or win any money with it, but it's extra work. So in the UK I could easily avoid that. In Germany, the limit is far lower. It's at, I think, 30,000 euros. So I was immediately pushed into that range, which means that now four times a year I have to do this. Um, VAT tax thing. I've done it four or five times at this point. And, um, I think the first three times I cried because, like literally cried because it is complicated and the bookkeeping programs here are shite also because like the, the actual laws around it are far too complicated. Um, so like, Suddenly I was, I was working the same amount. I was earning about the same amount. Uh, but I also had to do VAT tax shit, uh, four times a year. And then I also actually got less out of my earnings because in the UK I just put 20% aside for taxes and insurance and it was fine. Here I put one fourth of what I, what comes in immediately gets put aside for. I hope it's gonna be enough. I don't know if it's gonna be enough. We'll see. Um, and then I pay insurance, which is about 670 years a month for. And then I also put money aside so that I can pay the tax advisor that I need at the end of the year because there's no way I'm tackling that on my own. Like the, the VAT thing was already difficult enough, so it kind of just sucks the joy out of it. Also, cuz I can, I can literally not save any money. I earn the same amount and I cannot save any money. And it's just, yeah, I was just done with it, I

Dan:

Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I totally get it there. I mean, there's a bunch of pain in the butt stuff, uh,

Kai:

But I think it's, it's e easy, like it's less bureaucratic in the US isn't it? Like taxes are the same for whether you're a business owner or not, or am I, am I mistaken on that

Dan:

I, taxes are complicated. And I try not to pay too much attention to it. Um, I, I mean, I pay somebody to do it a as well, you know, and they, they just tell me the things to do, and I trust that they are, are accurate. Um,

Kai:

if we were to move back to the uk, I would easily do it myself again. But, um, I'm not gonna be self-employed in Germany or Australia again in my life. Thank you very

Dan:

Um, yeah, no, I mean, that's, that's totally fair. I, uh, and if, yeah, if it got much more complicated than this, I would, I then it is now for me, I would, I would certainly, uh, struggle with that too. That tax stuff just makes my brain shut down every time. Like, all the the businessy stuff around running a business. I, I don't actually enjoy, you know, even though I've been self-employed for so long. I know enough to get by and I haven't gotten audited or anything like that, But, uh, you know, other than that, it's, it's a struggle for sure. It's definitely one of the big downsides, uh, of being independent.

Kai:

definitely.

Dan:

Uh, so that's exciting. So your new role is Dev,

Kai:

No, um, not technically. Uh, actually I'm gonna be in the content department. Um, so I'm officially, I think it's content marketing manager, but I will also be teaching developers to write better. So that is something that I'm really, really excited about with this role. And it's, I think it's, I. Probably. So at first I was just like interviewing and talking to them and everything, and that part came up and I was like, oh wait, that is exactly what I wanna do. That is, yeah. So I mean, I guess technically it's developer education, so I think it'll be, uh, a good stepping stone into Dev proper. But like I, I only heard about Dev I think a year ago, like before that. I didn't really realize what it was like. I had a few friends who were in Devel, but no one ever bothered to explain to me what they were doing. And

Bekah:

I think, I think it's probably because nobody really knows what they're doing.

Kai:

And then

Bekah:

I say that as a Debra person, and so.

Kai:

and then a year ago was, I was talking to my friend, uh, Ramon, who's also in Virtual Coffee, and we've been friends for a few years and he was like, um, actually Kai. Because I was complaining about being self-employed cause it was a headache and a half. Um, and he was like, you know, Kai, all these like skills that you already have, minus coding is pretty much never, why didn't you go into that? And I started looking into it and that's when I, yeah, basically pivoted a bit and read my website. Kind of started networking more, joined some, some communities and started like casually interviewing, talking to a few people. I got really lucky. I, I had. Had a few casual conversations, two proper interview, like tracks with companies and, and that was it. And then I landed this, uh, within like, uh, I think maybe nine months or so. So that's pretty cool. But yeah, I just. It's just funny cuz I found out I had all these skills and interests and they all came together endeavor. And I had no idea this was there, And I think that's also what what makes me feel a lot better about like, stepping away from being self-employed because this, I don't feel like I'm leaving anything behind. I can bring like my whole self to the table, all my, all my skills, all these like random things like. I used to be a video editor. I enjoy public speaking. I'm one of the sweet people who enjoys public speaking. I know. Um, I love networking. I love talking to people. I love interviewing people. I also love writing and create, you know, and it all kind of comes together. And now turns out, I also enjoy coding. So that's kind of cool and convenient. I'm, I'm glad it turned out this way. And

Bekah:

Yeah. That's awesome. Somebody asked me at the conference I was just at, how I knew that I should get into Deval, I think, and how I did it. I was like, I, I didn't, um, somebody just told me I should, and then I was like, oh, I suppose I am doing all of those things right.

Kai:

So that is how it goes. Interesting. That's good to know. Good to know. Like, yeah, get friend who's like, you should be doing this.

Bekah:

Right. I, and even thinking about backgrounds, I really love how devel lends itself to non-traditional backgrounds too, because a lot of us have come from doing things like writing or teaching, and these are all skills that you need. You have to be a good communicator, right? And all those years of experience in communicating. Lends itself to Dev as you learn new things and, and you're better able to explain that to the people that you're working with.

Kai:

I'm really hoping that. as more people like us end up in Dev. Maybe also the, the job spec specs will get rewritten a bit because I do understand that like the technical knowledge is important. Like, yes, you need to learn a code, but I also think you can learn a code. It is, it is much harder to teach someone to communicate. When, like, obviously we've all learned to communicate well, but it's, it's been the lifetime process often and to write well and to create content well. And, um, yeah, I'm, I'm really hoping that the, the tide will change a little bit. I feel like it already is with some projects that, that really support career changes and everything. But yeah, it's still very often it's like when I was looking through job apps, like job ads, very often I would get to the tech requirements and it was an absolute must have, this, this, this, and this. And I was like, Hmm, yeah, I don't have that. I could probably, um, but right now I don't have that. And then I just didn't, I didn't bother applying to jobs where that was hammered home so much. I think. And I hope that changes.

Bekah:

Yeah, absolutely. I.

Kai:

maybe once the comm, once the economy is better, but

Bekah:

Right. Yeah. That's a challenge right now. Well, Kai, we wanna thank you for being here with us today. I've got one more question for you, and that's, if you can describe yourself with one word, what would that one word be and why?

Kai:

Um, I think the word would be curious because that curiosity has been. What's been driving me all these years with everything, like, everything new I learn. Yeah, the ADHD wants the new shiny, but also I'm very curious to learn new things. I love learning new things. Curiosity is what makes me good at interviewing people and writing about them and writing about new things. And yeah, I think I, I don't think curiosity killed the cat. Come to think of it, I think curiosity is a really good thing to have.

Bekah:

Yeah. I love that. That was great. And I think that everything that you talked about today really captures that.

Kai:

I am glad

Bekah:

Well, thanks so much for, for being here with us today and sharing your story. We really appreciate it.

Dan:

Thanks Kai.

Kai:

Thank you for having me.

Dan:

Thank you for listening to this episode of the Virtual Coffee Podcast. This episode was produced by Dan Ott and Bekah Hawrot Weigel. If you have questions or comments you can hit us up on Twitter at VirtualCoffeeIO, or email us at podcast@virtualcoffee.io. You can find the show notes, sign up for the newsletter, check out any of our other resources on our website VirtualCoffee.io. If you're interested in sponsoring Virtual Coffee you can find out more information on our website at VirtualCoffee.io/sponsorship. Please subscribe to our podcast and be sure to leave us a review. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next week!

The Virtual Coffee Podcast is produced by Dan Ott and Bekah Hawrot Weigel and edited by Dan Ott.