Ramón Huidobro - Thoughtful Learning

Show Notes:

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Transcript:

Bekah: 00:08

Hello and welcome to season seven, episode eight of the Virtual Coffee Podcast. I'm Bekah, and this is a podcast that features members of the Virtual Coffee community. Virtual Coffee is an intimate group of developers at all stages of their coding journey, and they're here on this podcast sharing their stories and what they've learned, and we're here to share it with you. Here with me today is my co-host, Dan.

Dan: 00:33

What up, Beck? How's it going?

Bekah: 00:35

It is going wonderfully. How is it going with.

Dan: 00:39

It's going great. Thanks for asking

Bekah: 00:40

You're welcome. I ask all the.

Dan: 00:43

Yeah. Yeah. Never, never fails. Um, yeah. We had another great episode for y'all. Today. We have Ramón joining us. Ramón is a developer advocate and DevEd enthusiast. and we had a really great conversation with him. Um, he, in his career, has made a point of helping other people like learn how to code. Um, seems like his, you know, main, his main happy place, right? And, uh, Spent a lot of time doing it, and so has a lot of thoughts on, on the whole process, how to be a better learner, how to be a better teacher. Uh, a lot of things. I, I had a, I had a really fun time talking, to Ramón.

Bekah: 01:21

I really love how empathetic he is in his approach and thoughtful, and he spends a lot of time really reflecting on the process and his awareness of other people and where they're at, and I think that's one of those things that you. I don't see enough people have that sort of self-awareness when they're teaching, and so it's really great to see and to talk about what that process looks like and how we can better support each other as we learn and grow together.

Dan: 01:55

Yeah, I totally agree. It's a great point and I, when you were talking about that, it made me think about some of our other recent, um, guests and I think, uh, there is a common through line of. The, some of the Virtual Coffee people that have been around for a while and that are more experienced in their career. Right. And, um, of that empathy. Right. Uh, Ryan, one of our guests, um, I don't know, a few weeks ago, was, uh, was talking about that a lot too. Right. And, and it's, I I think that's one of the things that sets some people apart from others is, is that, is that. Conscious empathy, you know, uh, approaching, approaching everything. Uh, and of course, I mean, we all know it can help your relationships and everything like that, but, um, keeping in mind when, when you're learning, when you're teaching, when you're, when you're working together, uh, it's, it's all, um, I don't know. It's, it's such an important and under, I feel like undervalued and then under, I don't know what's, what's an under, you know, not talked about enough I dunno, whatever the whatever the word that starts with under that means not talked about enough, uh, But you know what I mean? Like, it's, it's just, it's one of those things that we, I, I feel like we try to talk about it a lot at Virtual Coffee and, um, but it doesn't, I don't see it come up that often outside of Virtual Coffee. And, uh, well, hopefully we can try to change that a little bit, you know.

Bekah: 03:09

Yeah, I like that. What you just said about c. Conscious empathy. Um, because I think that, I actually had this conversation on Twitter recently where I told somebody, empathy is a skill, right? You're not just born super empathetic or super not empathetic. Like May, maybe you are, but it's something that you can actively work on. To get better at. And I think that idea of being conscious and having conscious of it and having those conversations, that helps you to grow in that skill and to understand how you can get better at that. And that's definitely something that is a common theme on the podcast and the stuff that we do at Virtual Coffee.

Dan: 03:48

Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I mean, I absolutely agree. It's a skill, um, that needs practice and sometimes it. Uh, you know, it it to be pointed out to people. Uh, some people like need some help, you know, with that and may not even realize it. Uh, especially because nobody talks about it you know? Uh, and so I dunno, the more we talk about it, I think the better everyone will be.

Bekah: 04:09

Absolutely, and we start every episode of the podcast, like we start every Virtual Coffee. We introduce ourselves with our name, where we're from, what we do, and a random check-in question. We hope you enjoy this episode. We start every episode of the podcast, like we start every Virtual Coffee. We introduce ourselves with our name, where we're from, what we do, and a random check-in question. We hope you enjoy this episode. Our random check-in question is, would you rather see 10 minutes into the future or 150 years into the future? My name is Bekah. I am a person in tech from a small town in Ohio, and I think I would rather see 10 minutes into the future because. 150 years seems like a really long time, and I'm not really sure what I would do with that information. It would probably send me into some kind of crisis, like what am I gonna do if this thing is bad, and can I change that? And what happens with time travel? So 10 minutes in the future, I can stop myself from saying something that's like mean or embarrassing. So that seems useful.

Dan: 05:35

Hmm. Okay. This is a tough one. All right. Hi, I'm Dan. Uh, I live in Cleveland and I do website development on my computer. Um, yeah, I mean, this one is, there's just too many. I have too many questions. You know what I mean? It's like, Okay, so you see 10 minutes in the future, but then you change something, you know, and like 10 minutes into your future, or like 10 minutes into, can I know what's happening, you know, in Ramón's house in 10 minutes also, even if I'm not there, you know, like, you know what I mean? Or is it just like your own?

Bekah: 06:12

own space. Like we're, we've got like three feet of personal space here, so we're gonna limit it to.

Dan: 06:20

Right. So like I couldn't like send my son on a bike ride and then, and know that in 10 minutes he's gonna like crash and skin his knee or something if he's out of my sight when that happens.

Bekah: 06:32

I mean, that seems useful,

Dan: 06:35

That's what I'm saying, like

Bekah: 06:36

But I think, no, no, you can't do that, sorry.

Dan: 06:40

do. So I can only like see things that happen to me personally, 10 minutes in the future.

Bekah: 06:45

within your site and hearing range.

Dan: 06:49

Okay. What about, okay, but then if you change something, see this is just like, there's no way you're not ending up in just like a paradox and

Bekah: 07:00

Okay, Dan, and just see

Dan: 07:01

mentally

Bekah: 07:02

years into the future.

Dan: 07:04

years in the future. Okay. But I mean, the same question, it's just the paradox, you know, stuff will happen like slower cuz it's, the feedback loop is slower. Right. But like, The, the thing that pops in the, my brain is like, okay, well I can see that, you know, X company, apple, what, whatever the new Apple is, like a huge company. And so buy stocks, you know, but then if I buy all the stock when they come out, that will change thing, you know, that will change the, the, the trajectory of the company, you

Bekah: 07:34

it, will it

Dan: 07:35

well, it could, or maybe it's successful because I bought all this, you know, this is like, this is too much. I, uh,

Bekah: 07:43

So you'll just keep your life the way it is. I think

Dan: 07:46

I

Bekah: 07:47

that's the,

Dan: 07:48

I just, uh, yeah, no, this like fuels into my indecision loop and I would just, either way I think get stuck and end up curling up in a corner, And that would just be my future. So,

Bekah: 07:59

there's your 10 minutes.

Dan: 08:01

there's my 10 minutes. All right. That's my answer.

Ramón: 08:05

That's totally fair. Uh, hi everyone. Uh, my name's Ramón. I'm originally from Chile, but I'm living in Vienna, in Austria. I'm a developer advocate at Suborbital software systems and, uh, part-time. And, uh, in my spare time I do lots of developer education, lots of like working with emerging devs and just having a good time trying to do my best to, uh, empower others. And, uh, I'm gonna, I gotta say I'm a little bit with Dan on this one. Like, I would love to have a conversation with the person who, or the entity that's like, cursing me with this choice, um, because like, on the one hand, 10 minute, like being a, like being able to tell what's gonna happen 10 minutes to, in my immediate future, to me, like no problem understanding like the scope of that, but. Um, or, or accepting the scope of that rather. But I think that would create so much anxiety in me of like doubt. Like I already doubt myself a lot. If I already know where that doubt leads me, I think that's gonna make it exacerbate that So, um, so that would make 150 years in the future. Tempting. However, I see a, I see a, like a practical a practicality to the like, well, if I order this meal at a restaurant and it comes in 10 minutes, will I enjoy it or not? At least like I like.

Bekah: 09:14

Oh, that's a good one.

Ramón: 09:15

Just my choices. Uh, if an, like, going by what you were saying, Dan, right? Like if an app, if Apple's gonna have one of their conferences in 10 minutes, I could see where the whole stock thing will go. But also like when having conversations, I, I, I, I can say, uh, the correct, like how I could say the things that don't, uh, make me look silly.

Dan: 09:36

Oh. Or like the argument where you think of the comeback later, you know, but you like look in your head and say, you're like, oh man, that's what I should have been, you know,

Ramón: 09:45

did you know that there's a French term for that? Uh, they call it which is like a f a staircase argument because it's like what you think of as you're going down the stairs. After having had that conversation,

Dan: 09:57

Uh, yes. That's great. That, Ooh, I like

Ramón: 09:59

I, I really like it.

Dan: 10:01

Yeah. That happens to me a lot. Yeah. But like, time isn't, you know, it's, it's, it's a brand, you know, it's like a tree. There's like decis, you know, what happens in the future? this is what I'm saying. If you change your mind, then you're gonna change the future, but then you have to look again or something. you know, it's like a, what was that? One of the Adventures movies. And Dr. Stranges is sitting there like for like an hour, imagining all of the different futures, you know. So if you can see 10 minutes in the future, can you see all the different branches? Or can you just like see the branch that would exist if you didn't look you know, you know what I

Bekah: 10:41

ever seen the episode of community where they have the different outcome?

Dan: 10:46

Yes. Yes. I love that

Bekah: 10:49

I think it actually won award. It's a really good one.

Dan: 10:51

Yeah, it's the, uh, I don't know, Ramón, if you've seen the, the meme of, um, of what's his name, carrying the pizza box into the room and everything's on

Ramón: 11:02

I thought so. I have seen that

Dan: 11:03

episode's from that one. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Don Glover. Thank you. That episode, that's what that episode is.

Ramón: 11:08

Yeah. Okay. Okay. I did wonder, like I've, I've never seen community. I was like, huh, what? What's this show about

Dan: 11:17

anyway. Uh,

Bekah: 11:19

we, before we go down the community rabbit hole uh, we're here to talk to you. And so, uh, we always like to get an origin story of everyone who's on the podcast and we're, I'm gonna ask you to kick that off by giving us one word that describes your journey into tech.

Ramón: 11:38

thank you. Um, I will admit I have come prepared because these kinds of questions, uh, send me spiraling. Uh, so the one I settled on was, uh, curious. Uh, and I think that's because like, I, I have over the years, like I was talking to Dan a little bit about like, uh, being, being in, uh, being, uh, working independently and what I love about that, uh, sorry, am I, am I allowed to like, expand on it?

Bekah: 12:04

You definitely are allowed. Go for it.

Ramón: 12:07

awesome. Um, One thing I like about it is that one thing I like about like being, being, uh, independent and, and having the, and, and, and the line of work that I do is that it allows me to, you know, explore different, uh, not just tech stacks, but industries through freelancing. Like, you know, I've gotten to work with, like, uh, in my past I was a, a, a freelancer and I've gotten to work with like, you know, um, medical, uh, companies I've gotten to work with, like FinTech I've gotten to work with like refugees. And what I, what I've learned over time is that, I kind of get a kick out of the whole like, onboarding process, not just for like a company, but also for like a code base. And so I, it's gotten me comfortable with being uncomfortable that moment where you're like, all right, guess we're gonna like figure out how the JavaScript tooling for this one works. And you know, it's, I don't wanna say rarely consistent, but there's always some inconsistencies there. You're like, okay, I guess I'm gonna install this thing I've never heard of before, Um, and I kind of like that it's gotten me comfortable with it. It's gotten me comfortable to like, dig in a little deeper. It's gotten me comfortable with also like knowing where to draw the line in terms of like how deep I need to go into something to consider it. Understood. I dunno if that makes.

Bekah: 13:22

Yeah. Yeah, I think so. And I, and that's really tricky cuz there's often not a hard line, especially with tech always changing, right? Like sometimes you feel like you're right there hitting that line and then it moves and like, ah, now I gotta learn this new thing.

Ramón: 13:37

Yeah. And you know, I've, I get the impression that this is some, a skill we pick over, over time because like when I work with, uh, emerging developers, a lot of the time they're, they, they will grow frustrated. For example, uh, I gotten folks who've gotten frustrated like, okay, I understand the concept of recursion, but like I need to go deeper and like, and, and I need to understand, like, I don't understand why it's do, why it's, does this, why it does that? Why is it that we use this library? I don't understand why, where, where do, where do push and pop come from in, where are they defined in the JavaScript standard library, for example. Um, and, and stuff like this. And one of my favorite questions I've ever gotten, I'm getting a little ahead of myself, but it just keeps coming back to me. Um, I used to do, I used to cocha, uh, rails girls workshops, which I think they were pretty prevalent in Europe. I think the equivalent for the, for North America would be, uh, rails Bridge. which was, uh, which are a series of workshops for getting, uh, underrepresented folks into, into tech through learning Ruby on Rails. And so I would do a lot of those and I, I would coach at a lot of those. And one of my favorite questions I've ever gotten that to this day infuriates me in a good way is they, somebody ask me like, Hey, Ramón, um, why is it called a diff. and I am to this day, livid with myself that I never wondered why it was called a diff. It was just the thing that I've been taught. There's too much of in my markup. You know,

Bekah: 14:53

Okay.

Ramón: 14:54

turns out it's divider or division one of the two. Um,

Dan: 14:57

Yeah,

Ramón: 14:58

but, but the point is that I, I never wondered this, so that, that what it, what it. What I'm trying to strive for is more of that curiosity. It's like questioning things. That's how we get those advancements in not just tech, but in like communities. Industries and and, and, uh, how we live as people.

Dan: 15:14

I, I love that so much. And like the, the idea. I, I absolutely agree with you that that skill of, that, the skill of like finding that stuff out is a skill that you learn over time and get better at over time. I feel like that's one of the, you know, one of the, I don't know what the right word is, signifiers of Kind of like one of the big differences between somebody who's closer to maybe a senior dev than a junior dev is the ability to be able to do that, right? To dive in and, and pick stuff up on your own and not be, you know, everybody gets overwhelmed sometimes, but like, not like instantly maybe feel more comfortable, um, you know, diving into a new code base that you have know nothing about, um, like you were saying. but the curiosity is, I don't know if you can teach that. Right. And that's like, that's one of those things that, um, even with somebody who's brand new to development, you can kind of see that. And that is, I feel like a signifier that a person maybe, you know, has a good chance of you like a very good developer. Right. Is that, that curiosity, um, that, I don't know. Urge to like, do what you're trying, like why is this called a div? What, like what, what does this thing do? You know, like as opposed to, and, and sometimes you have to just. accept that somebody is saying, okay, use, push and move on. Cuz we're not like trying to learn about push right now, you know, like use this array thing because, you know, but eventually, like you're gonna go back and, and kind of dig into it, you know? Um, and I dunno, I just, I guess agree with, I dunno if I'm really adding anything to what you said, but I, I agree

Ramón: 16:41

no, you are. Thank you.

Bekah: 16:44

Yeah. Okay. So let's take a step back and think about your journey into tech and how it started. So, where was the curiosity first sparked for you and how has that kind of shaped your career trajectory?

Ramón: 16:57

Yeah, totally. Um, and I think I, I think I might've misused my, my one word cuz there were two of them, right? One of them is like to describe me and the other one is to describe my origin source. I think I might've done that the way, other way around and I apologize.

Bekah: 17:08

that's cool.

Ramón: 17:09

and I'm gonna cheat because I'm gonna use a hyphenated word. Uh, and that is pay it forward.

Bekah: 17:16

Hmm.

Ramón: 17:17

Uh, because at several stages of my career, so I started out, uh, in high school, I was like, I don't know what I wanna do. Uh, and I was really into, uh, theater, but that didn't look like a career that I could do here in Australia. Cause my German isn't great. So, uh, I thought of another thing that I did okay in, and that was, um, I, I did okay in computer classes. So I enrolled at, at university to do computer science and I wasn't a great student. Uh, if I'm, and, uh, and I was struggling. I was like, classes were in German, and that was, that was, you know, it's not my first language. So it was, it was, it was a bit tough going, but uh, you know, and then when I met my, when my, when my met my partner at the time, spouse now, uh, and the question came with like, all right, let's find, let's find an apartment to move in. And I didn't have an income. I didn't, I had zero experience. Like I had just bought the, the first aluminum MacBook, you know, the 2008

Dan: 18:07

Oh yeah. Nice.

Ramón: 18:08

and I was like, Hey, like this was, I think this was like about the time that Max were, were like getting cool with like developers and like students and, uh, a again, and, uh, and I, I, you know, I had installed Xcode, which is the development suite for making MACHAs. And uh, and I was thinking like, okay, well let, I'm having fun with this, but there's no. Experienced enough. So I was looking at want ads online for like babysitting jobs, and my partner goes like, Hey, why don't you like, here's a Mac developer, um, job post. Somebody's looking for a freelance Mac developer, which is great for me because I, because I'm not European. I, I can't get a job permit as a student or it's harder for me to do. So it just made more sense to be a freelancer. I, I promise this is the short version, um, So I, on a whim, like I'm, I'm not exact, I'm not. On a, on a, like a confident whim, I applied and the person got back to me and said like, Hey, let's, let's go get a coffee at Cafe Mozart because you know, this is Vienna. You gotta go to you gotta go to a fancy coffee house. That, of course, happens to be called Cafe Mozart. Anyway, so I meet, I wore a suit for like the third time of my life, Um, and, uh, and, and this person, he, he sits me down and he says like, Hey Ramón, listen, um, really nice to meet you. Super cool that we went to the same, uh, high. that is super lucky that, that I, that, that was a coincidence. But he sat me down and he said like, Hey Ramma, listen, I gotta ask you like you've got no experience. Why did you apply for this? And I told him like, his name is Philip. I told him like, Hey Philip, listen. Um, I know. and again, feeling confident and, and, and I was like, listen, I think I can learn this well. Like I've been doing some excode, I've been learning some pro, I've been doing some programming stuff. I've got some of the basics from university. I'm no expert. I, I, to this day, I still have, don't have my degree. So that's a whole other rabbit hole. Um, you can take as long as you want in ocean universities. Anyway, um, so he sat me down and, and so he, and, and I told him like, look, I think I can learn quickly. I think I can, I think I can get. um, quickly with developing these, uh, his Mac apps and, uh, and he said, listen, well listen, uh, talking to you sounds nice. I don't think you're ready yet, but I'll tell you what, I need somebody to do email support from me for my apps. Here's a book I recommend. Uh, and so he gave me the link to buy, uh, um, there's this publisher called Big Nerd Ranch, and they had these, uh, programming books from, for, uh, different platforms, including Makos, and they were great. Uh, and he's like, uh, yeah, do this and let's talk about it again. And since then, like he gave me a chance. And so a few months later he, I still have an email from him, like, I need to frame it. The subject line was like, highly impressed with your work like that. It's so, it's so small things that like you carry for the rest of your life, you know? And, uh, so eventually he, he gave me that chance. Like I read, I went through the book. I felt confident and I started like fixing bugs, adding small features to different apps. I work with him to this day, but it's, it's the fact that he took me under his wing. He taught me like he taught me version. This was subversion at the time. Um,

Dan: 21:10

yeah.

Ramón: 21:12

uh, he taught me version control. Like he taught me like how to use, uh, Redmine, which is one of these project management tools. Uh, he taught me all of these things that I would've learned at university. But I think for me, Learning in a practical way, learning on a hands-on way. Like this is like real life stuff. Like I think one of the hardest things about learning version control in, in a, in, in an enclosed like non-specific environment is that that collaborative, like the, a little bit of the chaotic part is lost of like, you know, merge conflicts and all that. So like learning to navigate those was something that was really helpful for me. But yeah, so this, this person just sort of gave me that. and, and I've got a hand, I've had a handful of those in my life where, for example, my first job endeavor was my friend Jess reaching out to me one day and saying like, Hey, listen, I see like I can see on your cv. I was feeling a little bit, um, again, confident and I was like, you know, I've been, you know, giving talks, uh, coaching at things. I've been like working at, uh, NGOs to help underrepresented folks get into tech. Why not turn that into a, you know, you know how on your cvs, or sorry, your resumes, you'll have like little areas that of your skills. I thought I'll put Dev in there and see what developer relations in there and see what happens. And it happened, just reached out to me and said like, I've got this job offer. I don't want to like, um, do you want a job? Do a job share with me. So we get, we split, we split the salary, we split the work. I, she brings in her, uh, devil expertise. I bring in my, my knowledge in in tech and we sort of like turn that into one developer advocate. And the fact that she gave me this chance, the fact that she, you know, gave me a hand, um, that sort of shaped me. And, and this has happened a couple of times, has said, and that's why I say pay it forward, because like, you know, why not? Like, why not do what I can? Given the luck, the, the fortune and the privilege I've had to empower others to do the same. And again, that was a short version,

Bekah: 23:08

I think that's awesome and I really love. The theme of you saying you were feeling a little bit confident or something. Cuz I think, you know, even for me, so a couple weeks ago I was laid off and now I'm trying to figure out what I want to be doing and just kind of taking some deliberate time to think. Things through, do I want to continue on the Derell path? But the great thing is it's led to some conversations that I wouldn't have otherwise had I met with somebody who's part of, um, a, a small but prominent business in tech this morning, and they're hiring for a full-time role. I don't want a full-time role right now. And so we kind of talked about what I could be doing in terms of consulting and it's different than what most roles are. Advertised, but I think that the idea is kind of like what you were saying with Jess, both of you contributing something to become one dev, and so there's like a different take because right now in tech there's a lot of uncertainty about things and so like maybe finding that position where you can still be. Helpful in an environment or in a company is a way to get your foot in the door and see whether or not this is a good company to be working for or to gain some of that experience. Because we also see a lot of folks who are not finding jobs right now and trying to figure out like, how, how do you stand out in, in what you're applying for? When you're doing so much applying and I think that, you know, you even just putting dev on your, your CV or your resume is one way to do that, right? You're like taking a step in the right direction and you are doing things that you might be nervous about or reaching out to people, even though you might be a little bit nervous about it. You know, I yolo a DM two days ago and I've got a meeting on Friday with someone I've never met and. Somebody said like, oh, you have to teach me how to do that. Like, I don't know, I I wait for that exact second where I have like a little bit of um, uh, confidence and then I make sure I do it right then because if I start thinking about it, I'm not going to do it.

Ramón: 25:30

I feel you. I feel you. Big time and, and, uh, and I think it's, it's something that's been dawning on me over the last year or so. It's, it is those moments where you feel like, because the, I mean, as you well put it, it's, it's, I think, I think it's, you know, standing out. And I think beyond that, it's also sort of, I read the, I, uh, a few years ago, I read the book, uh, what is It? How The, how to Make Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie,

Bekah: 25:58

Yeah.

Ramón: 25:59

and, um, I think I Got it. Yeah. Something like that. How to Win Friends, anyone. Yeah. Um, and one thing that I really took away from. That book was, uh, the fact that just like you love helping people, so do pe so do the, the pe. Most of the people that you reach out to will love helping you. And that was a tough pill to swallow Cause I hate asking. Um, no, it's not that I hate it, I'm bad at asking for help.

Bekah: 26:25

Yeah.

Ramón: 26:26

Um, but it's those moments where you just assert what it is that you want, what it is that you need. And if somebody can provide that, and they, of course, Can and, and are willing to, they will, and it will make all the difference.

Bekah: 26:42

Yeah, and I think that asking for help, it is one of the hardest things, but it's also a strength. I think that so many people think it's a weakness to ask for help, but it's

Ramón: 26:52

No, no. Yeah.

Bekah: 26:54

you. It helps you to grow so much faster in what you're doing. It creates connections and relationships, builds relationships with other people, and it builds that trust because you know that if someone's willing to ask you for help, they trust you in some sense, and that's gonna be reciprocated.

Ramón: 27:12

absolutely. I agree 100%. Like I let to be, let me be super clear, like I have a deep admiration for folks who are just like, huh, I'm stuck on something. Let me reach out for help. Uh, that was, um, Not to side note too much, but like, that's something that I felt very strongly about. I wrote, um, I wrote a blog post a few months ago about like, when you're stuck in, in, in a coding problem, when do you reach out for help? Because I am definitely more on the side of like, I will never bother anyone. Uh, this, I think this was a lot for me because I was freelancing a long time that I didn't have anybody um, to, cause you know, I wasn't a member of a. That I was, it was actually, Ooh, okay. I'm sorry. I'm all over the place today. Um, uh, so right. Um, so I think, I think that reaching out for help learning to reach out for help is, is, is it It is a skill. It is a strength, but I think it can be honed. It can be developed,

Bekah: 28:03

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, we, a added a section to the site, I'm gonna have to get that blog post link from you, uh, about how to ask for questions with your code because we get issues over and over, you know, and there's a balance there. Right. And you've worked with a lot of folks who are coming into tech, so can you talk a little bit more about like, where is the balance between asking re too quickly and, you know, waiting for the right moment to do that?

Ramón: 28:30

Yeah, and, uh, it's, I mean, I really, really hesitate to say it depends, but hear me out. Uh, I think, I think the, the exact heuristic can vary from person to person. I think the exact like timing can vary from person. Like my, my, uh, go-to is half an hour if by half an hour. I haven't like, gotten anywhere or half an hour plus a walk cuz my head, my, my, like when I, when I walk my dog for example, that's one of my best debuggers in the world, like the back of my head. Um, so right. So if, if, if by a certain time I haven't, uh, come to a solution, then I will reach out for help because asking too early, Yes, it'll get you a solution, but especially if you're like, starting out, I find that that can sort of impede you from developing a skill of like problem solving, uh, how to, how to research an issue, how to like, deal with a, like, how to navigate an error message. I think it's, I think it's easy to forget how scary error me error messages can be when you're starting out. and later on as well, let's be honest. Like who, who hasn't, who hasn't pushed a Gajillion Times domain trying to like get an a GitHub action to work, right.

Dan: 29:43

Yeah.

Ramón: 29:45

I'm glad it's not to speak, but um, yeah, so doing it too early can, can, can and of course impede you and cause interruptions in a team, but I think waiting too long, which is something I'm guilty of, can also. Delay a timeline, delay a team. If you're not com, like communication. Like one of the, one of the most important skills I picked up from freelancing is that of communication. Like one of my most essential core skills. Uh, as a freelancer, it's highly critical because I need to tell a client, Hey, this is where we're at. Like, you know, being, if they're, if they're, if my client is non-technical, then I need to put it in a way that, that is, that is. That is, uh, in a, in a, in a way that they can, um, that, that, that can be, yeah, easily, uh, understood or, um, straightforwardly understood. And if I'm, for example, dealing with, uh, if I'm working in a team, this helps me sort of like give good code reviews and all that, and give updates and all that. There's something that we pick up a lot. Um, yeah, so, right. So delaying a team too much can also be detrimental. So finding that sweet spot, I said for me it's half an hour plus a. How about you? I'm.

Dan: 30:57

I, I mean, I like that. I like that rule. Sorry, Bekah. Do you want to go

Bekah: 31:01

no, you.

Dan: 31:03

Uh, I, I just was, I just wanted to call out some of the, like, you know, you talked about being independent versus being on a team, things like that. Right. And I, I found like, and, and, and of course I, I'm like, I've been doing this for a long time, and so lots of times when I get stuck it's, you know, there's a lot of things going on right? I still get stuck. Like I, I do, like, don't, you know, don't get me wrong, but like my, my issue lots of times is, is there's so much context around it that it takes so long to explain the problem, you know, and I'm independent myself. And so there aren't any team members that also have their heads all the way down into.

Ramón: 31:38

Yeah.

Dan: 31:38

The, the, the, you know, the, the, the, the space that you're in, right? Um, like you will find when you're working together on a team, which is one of the reasons why being on a team is, is can be so valuable and powerful. Um, but the, I'm, I'm, I mean, I'm awful at asking for help. I get stuck all the time and I just, you know, um, I don't know. I. Just slam my head against it, until I can get through it. Usually

Ramón: 32:05

I feel.

Dan: 32:06

Uh, but it, I guess my point is the, the problem for me is, is identifying like what the actual question is. And I think that is a skill that like can be honed and can be useful for people of all at all, like skill levels and all like experience levels of, of. Sort of asking the right question, you know, sort of like, what is the actual question? This thing's broken, you know? And, and, and we've, we've had, we've helped people in, in Virtual Coffee lots of times, like, we'll have people do this where somebody has says like, oh, this thing's broken. Does that mean anybody have experience with this? Can you help

Ramón: 32:40

Yeah.

Dan: 32:41

paste in code You know, and like the trying to narrow down what the actual problem is, is, is, is one of the things. I A g may mean a good question. Answerer would, you know, have is that skill, you know, but it's like a skill you can do for yourself as well, right? Okay. Like, what is actually happening here? Take a step back. Um, you know, that, that sort of thing. So I, uh, well, to answer your original question, I don't really have a rule about, about when to ask for help because I'm bad at it. But, uh, I think that's a solid rule.

Ramón: 33:12

Totally underst.

Bekah: 33:13

I think for me it's been different since I've been in Devra because I'm not working in large complex code bases most of the time, and so it's developing code for open source projects or for a blog post or something, so it makes it a little bit. Simpler to maybe debug or figure things out. But I have a, a couple of things, like I've been using chat g p T a lot in my work, and so being able to ask questions there, like, can you explain to me what's going on in this function and if there's a better way, For this thing to be done, um, often leads me down that path of asking more specific questions about things. So I feel like that if you, if you don't have someone to ask questions to and you are learning how to code, using tools like that can be really useful for helping you understand like, what are the questions that you should be asking? And it doesn't necessarily have to be about code like we're homeschooling my 13 year old now. And his ability to ask questions and then to dig further into topics is a really useful way to engage in some kind of response and, and learning how to ask those questions. Um, but back to your question and when do I ask questions? I usually don't time myself, and I probably should because I, I will lose all track of time. But it's, um, the feeling when I have. 19 tabs open, and then I'm starting to open up tabs that I already have open and I'm rereading the same responses, and I'm like, okay, I have already tried all of these things, so it's probably time for me to ask somebody a question since I. I still don't have the answer, and I'm still looking at all of the same things. So it it, it depends on the, the number of tabs I have open, I guess.

Ramón: 35:15

Yeah, I, uh, I really, I relate very much with that especially like the, the, the mental tabs as well. I have Um, but what you said about like formulating questions and like. like, one of the things that I think a lot about is like how to make yourself as helpable as possible. I think it's also a skill that we develop over time of like narrowing a doubt. Like what you said, Dan, about, like how at the beginning, and this happens to a lot of us, like I spent a long time teaching children to code, and that's, and that's something that, that's, that's very prominent to the beginning because you don't know what's. If something is working or, or if it's meant to be broken or not. So what? You just go, it's broken, then it falls on me. The, the, the, the mentee to be like the mentor, pardon me? To be like, okay, is this a good time to go into like a little bit of a deep dive? Am I just gonna fix this for them? Do I help guide a, a big, a big tool? I like in situations like this where there's not a lot of, like narrowness is, uh, guided questions. Are you familiar with.

Bekah: 36:17

I don't think so. Tell me more.

Ramón: 36:19

Oh, these are, that's like one of my favorite tools in like, uh, um, not just teaching, but I think in, in, in, in most of our core skills in general, which is like asking a question that insights critical thought and a discussion.

Bekah: 36:32

Mm-hmm.

Ramón: 36:34

So for example, like, uh, I don't know, say like, this doesn't work. And, and, and these can, and these can start out quite broad, right? This doesn't work. Oh, cool. Um, what's it meant to be, and I know this sound like, I know this sounds condescending, but I think like going into like a little bit of like, okay, let's, let's take a look at this. Let's try and explore this together. What's, what exactly isn't working and make it and being, you know, you can be open and clear from the start. Like, let me help you sort of develop that problem solving skill. Let's go into that. What should be happening? Uh, Paige should be rendering. Okay, cool. Like, let's, why, why? Um, what does the error. What's, let's put that error into Google stuff like, you know, the, the, the, the problem solving skills, the, the conversations we have in our head on a constant basis when we encounter an error. Let's do that out loud. Um, start getting a list of like, okay, cool. What, what, what is the narrower version of that problem? What have we tried so far? How do we reproduce it? Especially if you're working asynchronously, having, and we see this a lot in like GitHub issue templates, right? When you're reporting an issue, like you'll see these things. What, like what browser are you on? What have you tried, what uh, how do I reproduce it? And sort of like narrowing that down so you can be as quickly helpable as possible as well. Uh, sorry, I kind of went on a side note there.

Bekah: 37:51

I think that's great.

Dan: 37:53

Yeah. And you'll find a lot of that in our guide that Bekah mentioned too, on Virtual Coffee. Cuz you know, we, we have that help pairing channel and Virtual Coffee and we have people asking questions all the time and they're, they're all, you know, it's all the same, not the same stuff, but it's like a lot of people in the same situation where they're stuck on something, you know? And you, we, we do, I mean I think a lot of people will help people try to ask better questions too, you know? Um, cuz it can help so much, you know, uh, the. and, and it can help also increase your likelihood of your question getting answered

Ramón: 38:28

Yeah.

Dan: 38:28

you know, so it's like, so you're helping the, you're helping the people that are answering you, but you're also like helping yourself right? By, by asking better questions and things like that. Um, my, my thing is like get getting stuck, like the, the act of like, ans asking those questions and going through those thought patterns yourself, you know, ahead of time. Um, For me at least half the time I figure the answer out when I'm, when I'm like formulating the question, you know what I mean? Or I've done this, like I've gone down, I've been, I found, thought I found a problem on some open source, you know, packages that I was using and like. You know, figuring it out and trying to get, like, I, you know, we, we've, all three of us have maintain, have maintained open source repository. So we know like what, what it's like to deal with issues that are, uh, not good. So I always try to do a good job on submitting issues, you know, but creating a, a reproduction, things like that, um, for the problem. And I get like, Way down deep into making this, like, boiling this down and then I figure out what the problem is. it's not a problem with their package and it's a problem. I was using it or something, you know, and maybe it's like a, actually just a documentation error or, you know, issue or something like that. But that process of like, um, formulating a, a well-formed question um, can lots of times actually like help you answer it before you even have to hit submit, you know? Um, so it's a good practice stick into, uh, for, for many reasons.

Ramón: 39:52

totally.

Bekah: 39:54

and it all comes back to that idea of being a good communicator, right? It doesn't matter what you're doing. You need to be able to be a good communicator, and I worry about. you know, I mean, a lot of people I oh, I worry about all of the people, um, but particularly people who are in programs where the goal is to get through the program as quickly as possible, right? Because you often don't have time to ask those questions, or you think it's about memorization. And you know, even my kids who are in US schools, the focus, they have Iowa tests coming up and they're like, oh, we. Hate Iowa tests. I'm like, it doesn't matter. You can do really terrible on these standardized tests and it does not make a difference. You, you have to go through it as part of school, but they get really nervous and, and what is it doing? It's, it's basically, Measuring a lot of the stuff that you've memorized, there's not a lot about understanding the thought process that goes into these things, which I think is, I find is way more valuable. Like, how did you get to that answer? You know, what could you have done to find the right answer? And so there's this focus on let's memorize these things so we can get out, get done, and we can imply them in a job and really, that's not the most valuable part of being a developer. The most valuable part is being able to communicate and to be curious, you were talking about earlier, because tech is always changing. If you wanna memorize everything, all the documentation for one technology, go for it. But in a year it's going to be different.

Ramón: 41:31

I, ooh, that, that, that hits a, that hits a really, really, Big light bulb for me, which is like being able to, to, I mean, first of all, that whole like memorization how tough it is to communicate to folks that they don't have to memorize things. Um, to, to understand. Like, and, and I understand why like, it's, it's not, um, It's not impossible to see why folks are, let's believe that because so much of like, especially like when we're talking about like emerging devs and like finding that first job and finding that first job is hard. Um, I'm, I'm not gonna sit here and say like, it gets like exponentially easier, but getting the first job is probably the toughest one. Um, because you don't, you don't have that, you don't have that experience. Like you don't have that, that, that, how do I put this? Not, not professional experience, but like paid, you know, paid experience to to, to back that up. And so like a lot of that involves, like I, and I've seen folks come to me and say like, Ramón, do you really have to like be able to write an Express JS app from scratch? And I'm like, I don't even know if I'm mpm installing Express. Or Express js. Or Express js. I don't know. Um, and, and, and, and one thing I've learned is that, you know, I, I'm not. I'm not a fighter per se, but I have, I have come to the conclusion that what I can do is demonstrate that you don't have to. And so like my, my friend Jess and I, we run, we um, we run some boot camps to, uh, some free boot camps to help folks, uh, get started in web development or in JavaScript. And I've got this, I've got this moment. So these, these were live streamed and I was like doing the, uh, free code camp exercises for and answering questions with learners and showing essentially how I. Like, you know, talking out loud, by the way, talking out loud is such a good debugger anyway. Um, and so I was doing one of these and if you've done free code camps, uh, free code camps, JavaScript, uh, certification, you might remember the record collection exercise cuz it is, it is manipulating a complex JavaScript option. I'm talking like, like, I'm talking like three levels deep with a raise in objects inside it complex JavaScript object. And you're supposed to write a function to manipulate this, uh, In a non-function way, you know what I mean? Like you're manipulating the object itself. And so I'm doing this and this is like an hour long stream, and what happened? I couldn't get it working like I couldn. I was stuck. I was massively stuck. And I was doing like the, I'm supposed to do like a bunch of these, and I have never in my life felt worse. I felt like I was failing. Like I was trying not to look at the chat, but the chat's like, oh my, oh my goodness. What is he doing? Uh, uh, he, I'm lost. Can we start over? They're trying to tell me like, oh, go to this, go to line three, and like, look at this. I, I, I'm so nervous. I'm like, I, I don't even know what the number three is. Please. Like, ah, um. and uh, I did manage to eventually figure it out and I fixed it and like we fell a little bit behind. I had to give some extra homework. But after I finished that stream, I gotta tell you, I was feeling lousy. Um, cuz I was like, you know, I couldn't demos. Like, I, I couldn't, I mis I, I felt like I had misled folks, but I got a couple dms for folks and they were pretty consistent in saying like, Hey Ramón, um, you know, thanks for doing the bootcamp as always. Um, uh, that looked really tough. Uh, don't know how I'm gonna do it when I get to it, but I just wanna say like, Thank you for showing that even someone who's been in this for like over 12 years can still get stuck, can still struggle and can come out through, because we forget. We forget that, you know, when we get stuck on a problem and we're like, oh gosh, I'm never gonna finish this. But you do eventually figure it out either collaboratively or by yourself. And so like when I, when I was able, when once I had that, there was like a game changing moment for me to like realize that I can show that. I mean, if we, if we knew everything off by heart, we wouldn't need documentation, you know, so that, that, that really meant the world to me.

Dan: 45:27

Yeah, that's, that's cool. And like I, I've experienced that as well of, um, just, it, it's so important to be able to like to show that you. that people who are like more experienced, um, still get stuck, right? Because people, you know, you assume that, you assume that people that are um, that have been doing this for a long time just know everything and can handle everything and are like, yeah, whatever. Here it is, you know? And, um, it's obviously just not true you know? Um, and uh, I just love that. I love that practice of, um, you know, learning in public and doing all that stuff.

Ramón: 46:05

Yeah. This is something that I really like about, um, about live streaming in general. Um, and that's that I, even if I want, I'm so bad at recorded video, but live streaming, no prob like not, not to go too, too far off topic, but I always laugh because like when I have to do a two minute video, it takes me three hours.

Dan: 46:23

right?

Ramón: 46:24

Cause you're like doing retakes and all that. Ugh.

Dan: 46:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Um, no, that's why I prefer live streaming too. Uh, unfortunately you can't like just go take a walk. I guess. Maybe you could. I suppose that might be interesting but

Ramón: 46:36

whole point is that it's a, it's an open format where you're just like, Hey, you know what folks, you know, you know how a lot of streamers, if, especially if they're like playing games for like six hours or something, they'll just be like, they'll put up a B R B A B right Back overlay and just like, go get some water or something. Or go walk through a dog. Yeah.

Dan: 46:51

Yeah.

Bekah: 46:52

And sometimes part of that too, your chat people who are watching can help you navigate that experience, right? Like they might have some ideas. And that's one of the things I love too, because there's als often horizontal mentorship that's happening in those scenarios where somebody who might just be starting out knows the next question to ask something that you've forgotten or something that you wouldn't have thought of. And so then everybody can kind of participate and you can all support each other.

Ramón: 47:21

Totally.

Dan: 47:23

I do find it difficult personally, too. When live streaming and when you're in that position where you're just kind of stuck and trying to figure things out. The I don't know. This is, this is like an experience, like very specific to live streaming. Right. Um, but I, I, I have a hard time like getting my brain to, if I'm really trying to figure something out, but then like people are talking and I'm. Trying to read their comments and see what they're like, understand what they're saying while my brain is still churning on whatever the thing is that I'm stuck on. You know, I've only been in that, in that boat where I just like, like you said, like, yeah, I don't even know what numbers are anymore, Like, I'm, I'm so stuck right now. Um, but I think that's, I think that's, you know, that's kind of specific to live streaming it, you know?

Bekah: 48:08

I, it's part of the experience, right? And I think that even whether you're live streaming and you get distracted by the chat, or I'm at my desk and I get distracted by a snack or something, like, there's always something that can take us outside of that process. And I think that's often an indication of like, okay, take a step back, take a reset, and you can do that at any time. In live streaming, it can be helpful to have somebody else around who can be the navigator for the chat. If you feel like, okay, that's something that I get distracted by, and it's all to say that there's lots of different ways of doing things, of communicating, of debugging, of learning and growing and finding the right thing that works for you is a really important part of the process.

Ramón: 48:56

Absolutely. And. You know, I find, I find that, um, this is why like before I started live streaming, like I'm a big believer in, uh, you know, you don't have to do things just because everybody's doing them. Um, so, you know, if you try out live streaming and you find it's not for you, but you still wanna try this sort of like learning in public kind of thing. Like, one thing that I was doing prior to the pandemic a lot and a little bit during the pandemic as well, was, uh, what I call the study. But what my friend Jon Ash taught me eventually is called formally called a community of practice, which I really, I like that term. And what it is, is, uh, sort of a meetup. Uh, I think in some places you'll see them called like Coffee and code. They, they've got different names. Like I used to go to one for Rust called, uh, rust, uh, Rustin Learn. Um, um, that was, uh, online based in Berlin. And really what it really was is just like you meet up with some people. and you just code on whatever you can collab if you want, but you're just like around each other coding on stuff or like working on a side project or you know, doing whatever and when you need some help or, or if you wanna like show off something, you'd be like, hold up, let me get on the projector for a second and show y'all. Like, let me show y'all what I'm working on. And. What I l and, and, and I think for me it really emphasizes that collaborative aspect of, of learning what you were talking about earlier, back about like, uh, horizontal mentorship. Like I'm a big, big, big believer that mentor, like the distinction I make between teaching and mentorship is that a lot of the time don't wanna generalize. Um, teaching when, when teaching, I feel like knowledge mostly flows, uh, in one direction, teacher to students. Whereas with mentorship, it tends to be a lot muddier than that. It can go both ways. It can go in other way, like you said, horizontally, like you said, Bekah and, and that's something that I find really invigo.

Bekah: 50:43

Yeah, I really love that and I think that that's kind of a good way to conclude our episode today because so much of what we talked about stems on that idea of being curious, having those conversations, being a good communicator, and, and I really love the idea that you mentioned before of how to wait. I wrote it down. How to make yourself as palpable as possible, which I might just steal for the title of this episode, because

Ramón: 51:11

Oh,

Bekah: 51:12

that, that's key, right? That's essentially a huge part of this journey.

Ramón: 51:18

I agree. I agree. And I find, I find that, um, not to diverge too much, uh, from that, cuz I know we're wrapping up, but, you know, I, uh, being on the receiving end of that, how important listening is. Um, And I mean, listening strategically. For example, uh, one of the things I always emphasize when I'm dealing, when I'm working with somebody and, uh, let's say they're showing me a solution that, and they want to make sure that it's okay with me or, or that, that it's good to merge and they're explaining the solution to me and I don't agree with it one bit, and I'm like, no, no. And my, and my head, and I'm screaming like, no, no, no, no, no. We need to rewrite this. We need to use a functional solution or something. How important it is to let that all be. Sounded out, you know, like said, said out loud by, by the mentee and just be like, explain, like showing and explaining the solution to me. Cuz a couple things might happen. And this is something that I really love, which is either by being a proverbial rubber duck, you know, like rubber duck programming where you explain something to, to, to, to anani object by being a proverbial RobotC to, to the mentee. They might, by explaining it, be like, oh, hold on, now that I say it out loud. This isn't that great a solution, how about we try this? And I was like, sure, let's try it. Um, and I let they, they did all of that by themselves and I think that's so empowering. Or, uh, I might realize that I was wrong cuz I'm human. I make mistakes. Maybe their solution is just absolutely fine. And just because it's not the way I would've done it doesn't mean it's wrong. It's just different and it still fits the code base or it incites a convers. um, yeah, sorry, didn't wanna take us too far off topic.

Dan: 53:02

No, I, I think that's great. And I've had that experience too, of trying to help. Through it and being like, this is wrong. This is like, in my head, this is like, this is totally wrong. I never, you know, no, don't do this. And then talking through it. Actually, I end up coming around to there. Point of view, you know, like under, you know, so that, that, like listening is, is such an important skill. Um, and it's, it's worth talking through. Um, all that stuff. I, that's, that's for anybody, that's for mentors or anybody, even, even if you're on the same thing and doing a poll request on somebody or, uh, you know, uh, peer review on somebody else's work. Um, just keeping that like open mind and, and then like trying to listen to what they. As opposed, you know, instead of interjecting your own opinion and thoughts on top, uh, right away, you know, try to understand what their thought process was first, because sometimes there's gonna be stuff you're gonna miss, um, that you didn't think of, you know, and, uh, I dunno, it's very valuable. So I agree wholeheartedly with that advice.

Bekah: 53:58

Thanks so much for being here with us today, Ramón. It was great chatting with you.

Ramón: 54:02

It was a joy.

Dan: 54:03

Thanks,

Ramón: 54:03

so much for having me.

Dan: 54:04

All right, we'll talk to you soon.

Ramón: 54:05

Take care everyone.

Dan: 54:10

Thank you for listening to this episode of the Virtual Coffee Podcast. This episode was produced by Dan Ott and Bekah Hawrot Weigel. If you have questions or comments you can hit us up on Twitter at VirtualCoffeeIO, or email us at podcast@virtualcoffee.io. You can find the show notes, sign up for the newsletter, check out any of our other resources on our website VirtualCoffee.io. If you're interested in sponsoring Virtual Coffee you can find out more information on our website at VirtualCoffee.io/sponsorship. Please subscribe to our podcast and be sure to leave us a review. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next week!

The Virtual Coffee Podcast is produced by Dan Ott and Bekah Hawrot Weigel and edited by Dan Ott.