Reda - From Maritime Engineer to Self-Taught Front-End Developer

Show Notes:

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Transcript:

Bekah Hawrot Weigel: 00:06

Hello and welcome to Season 8, Episode 5 of the Virtual Coffee Podcast. I'm Bekah, and this is a podcast that features members of the Virtual Coffee community. Virtual Coffee is an intimate community of people at all stages of their tech journey. And they're here, on this podcast, sharing their stories and what they've learned. And we're here to share it with you. Here with me today is my co-host, Dan.

Dan Ott: 00:32

Yo. What up, Beck? How's it going?

Bekah: 00:35

It is going fantastic.

Dan: 00:37

Nice.

Bekah: 00:38

How's it going with you?

Dan: 00:39

It's going great. We have another great episode for y'all. We are sitting down with Reda. Reda is a front-end developer from Morocco. And we had a really great talk ti- time talking to him. He actually started his career in marine mechanics, which is pretty interesting. And during the pandemic, decided to switch tracks into, you know, web development and front-end development in general. And it was a really good time sitting and talking with him. We- we learned a lot about his story and-- I dunno. He's a very interesting guy.

Bekah: 01:09

Yeah, it was really fascinating to hear, like, he had completed all of the stuff that he needed for the marine mechanics degree. The-- and- and then after completing that, decided to go into coding, and did the whole self- self-taught, route and what that journey was like for him and finding a job, you know? I think that it's really fascinating to see that career pivot happening right at the pandemic and then that journey to find the first job.

Dan: 01:39

Yeah, totally.

Reda: 01:40

Hi.

Dan: 01:40

A-a-and he's- he's one of the fewer people I've talked to recently who is self-taught but didn't go the bootcamp route, right? He- he followed freeCodeCamp and a lot of, just, self-guided things. And-- I don't know. I mean, it's- it's really great hearing from somebody who had-- kind of did the self-driving, you know, educations route and--

Bekah: 02:02

Yeah, the importance-

Dan: 02:02

[Chuckles] I don't know. [Unintelligible].

Bekah: 02:02

-of community as part of that, right? Like, he talked a lot about Virtual Coffee — being a part of that, freeCodeCamp, Collab Lab, and all of the ups and downs that you have as a self-taught learner, and how important it is to have community as part of that. So I felt like this really captured the essence of Virtual Coffee and what we're trying to do here.

Dan: 02:21

Absolutely.

Bekah: 02:23

We start every episode of the podcast like we start every Virtual Coffee. We introduce ourselves with our name, where we're from, what we do, and a random check-in question. We hope you enjoy this episode. Our random check-in question today is, what is your third space? So the space where you feel like you belong, something that's not home or school. I give you a second to think about that while I do my intro. My name is Bekah. I am Developer Experience Lead at OpenSauced. I'm from a small town in Ohio, and my third space, I feel like the woods is a good place. It's like the woods are the library because those have always been places that I've loved since I was a kid, and I could just go, like, hike, or explore, or sit and read a book for hours. And those have always been, like, very comforting spaces for me.

Dan: 03:26

Nice. Yeah. Hi, I'm Dan. I do front-end development or whatever-- full stack development? I don't know. I- I made a decision earlier to just say I do full stack even though I don't like that phrase. But it is something that more accurate to what I do. So, anyway-- oh, Cleveland area, and-- yeah. I mean, I-- I'd say the woods in general as well. Maybe specifically, like, we have a- a-- my family has a cabin out in Pennsylvania. But I'm really comfortable in any- any- anywhere I have a backpack on and, [chuckles] you know, maybe my pet-- my tent with me. The woods-- the woods are good for, like, all the reasons you said, honestly. And e-exploring especially is one of my-- one of my favorite things to do. So, yeah. And-- yeah. So, introducing our guest, Reda, go ahead.

Reda: 04:13

I am Reda. I am a front-end developer based in Morocco. And my third place is, I think, I'll go with the- the sea. Back in college, I used to have this coffee shop. It's, like, in front of the-- of the beach to be more accurate. And I used to hang out there a lot. Yeah.

Bekah: 04:34

That sounds awesome. I love it. Well, thanks so much Reda for being here with us today. We're happy to have you on the pa- the podcast. I like went-

Reda: 04:41

Yeah.

Bekah: 04:41

-Midwestern. The padcast [chuckles]. I'm not [chuckles]-- I'm from Eastern Ohio. We don't say it like that here, I apologize [laughs]. And we always like to get started with your origin story. So I know that you have a really fascinating one. So why don't you let us know, like, what you were doing before you came into tech and what the journey was like to getting your first job.

Reda: 05:05

Yeah, sure. I was in the marine big-- mechanics field. So, like, I used to go for-- in the fishing ships. But I didn't really, like, start working. I just had training there. But, like, my education was focused on that, on the ma- marine mechanics. So during my-- during my graduation, the- the pandemic hit. So-- yeah. It hit when I-- when I was preparing for my final projects for the graduation. My final project was kinda like related to, programming? Not really. But I had some parts of the pro- programming in it. It was kinda like a- a black box to me. I didn't really, like-- I can say this. I wasn't really working on the programming part, but I was curious about it. So I had-- I was doing some, like, simulation with MATLAB. I don't know if you've ever heard of that. It's like a software for simulation but it- it has some stuff, like, with programming in it. But I- I- I didn't think I really touch it. I was just copy paste the code there, working [??] with it. Also, I had some- some classes, like, in the-- some classes back in college related to basic algorithms and- and I-- if I remember good, C++. And I really liked them. So from there, it started, like, my- my passion, too, and, like, my interest in programming. So after graduation, the-- I- I- I hadn't really a lot to do. Because the pandemic, I'm stuck at home. There's nothing I can do. So I started, like, searching about these things, that it was, like, just a black box for me. I started with machine learning, which is kinda like weird [laughs]. It's-- I don't know. I was just looking for something to start with, you know? And one course on Coursera has MATLAB and also, like, the stuff, so I just started with machine learning. After that-- machine learning-- like, in that course, they were using MATLAB. But they-- after finishing the course, they said that, like, Python is much better. And if you wanna, like, learn more about this stuff, you should, like, go with- with Python. So I started Python after machine learning [chuckles], even though I didn't really do anything with machine learning. It was just, like, out of curiosity. Just, like, how things work. I started that course on-- like, "Python for Everybody" on Coursera. It was really good, and the- the teacher is really, like, amazing. The most, like-- it's- it's the-- I can't remember the- the name. I think Dr.Chuck? I can't remember the name. Anyway-- but the course is, like, "Python for Everybody", it was really amazing. And-- but after I finished that course, I really didn't know what to do with it. So I have the knowledge, I have the basic knowledge but I have no idea what to do with it because, like, Python is more for backend and it wasn't any visual, like, feedback for me. And they're more vis- like, a visual person. So I started, like, to search for something, like, that has more interactivity. So I do something and then see the results in front of me. So more like a visual feedback as I said. And during my search, I was mainly searching for free stuff because I- I wasn't working, I was totally relying on my parents [laughs]. So-- yeah. And I found freeCodeCamp. So freeCodeCamp, and from there, the-- like, the real journey started. So the-- just like the first challenge in freeCodeCamp, you just do, like ... like small challenge, and you see the result in front of you, like, in the same moment, and that was amazing. It was like, "Oh, wow. I- I did something," you know? Even though I spent maybe three months on the-- on the specialization of Python, I never felt the same when I-- when I saw the results in front of me, like, in- in the same moment. Yeah. So I finished freeCodeCamp, and after that, I just was-- yeah. I was just, like, building projects until I got into The Collab Lab. And after The Collab Lab, I got, like, my job directly after that, like, after finishing The Collab Lab. Yeah.

Bekah: 10:09

Awesome. Thanks so much. It's such an interesting story to hear that. And that process of where you were in university and what brought you to here-- I'm curious, what kind of projects were you working on in between the end of freeCodeCamp and Collab Lab?

Reda: 10:26

Yeah. I- I was mainly doing, like, the- the freeCodeCamp projects because the- the problem was in the-- in freeCodeCamp-- it's not a problem, but it's just more of like the hard part on freeCodeCamp is all the learning is ... is text based, you know? So it was kind of like hard to understand some parts. So I was, like, going to look on YouTube, and on different blog posts, and so on, and, like, keep, like, re- revising what I was doing before. And then I'm back to the-- to projects on freeCodeCamp. So I did the projects on freeCodeCamp and then I was looking for, like, projects on YouTube, projects on, you know-- but- but that's the-- that's tutorial hell. So [laughs]-- yeah. It was pretty much hard to get out of it. It's-- the hardest part was-- the hardest part was when you just look at the screen and you don't know, like, from where to start. But the built end projects in freeCodeCamp were pretty much, like, they- they give you the ... what you have to do, you know, like, steps. They don't give you, like, what you have to do but what's you are supposed to do. So, like, the- the steps of the- the process. So my projects mainly were freeCodeCamp projects plus some YouTube tutorials and so on. And then, I was, like, trying to improve the- the projects I worked on. So that's what I was doing. I was, like, going in some areas that I didn't touch during freeCodeCamp, like testing, accessibility, and so on. Accessibility was covered in freeCodeCamp but testing wasn't. And I also was feeling, like, the gaps because, I- I did — you can say it's one of my mistakes when I was learning — is the-- that I was trying to be fast, to be like, "Just finish this, finish this, finish this, and go on." And that, like, left, like, some gaps in the fundamentals. So-- yeah. Projects will help you fill out that kind of gaps. I think I didn't really answer your question [laughs] but-- yeah.

Bekah: 12:51

Well, I think you definitely answered the question. And I think that's really important, that idea of going through too fast and having those learning gaps. And I think that I also-- I went to bootcamp and it took me a year. But I-- you know, I was working at a slower pace and I still think it was a little bit too fast for me too. And I did-- I had done a full stack program after doing a portion of freeCodeCamp. And there was just so much material to get through in that time period, but I wondered-- I was, like, ready to move on to the next phase of my life, right? Like, ready to get a job. And I- [chuckles] I remember thinking afterwards like, "Oh, once I get done with this, it's gonna be easy." And, like, [chuckles] I don't know why I thought that. But then, you start your first job, you're like, "Oh, that was the easy part and now I've hit the hard part." And I don't know if that resonates with you or your experience in Collab Lab, maybe filled in some of those gaps and helped with that, but I'm curious if- if you had any of that experience too.

Reda: 13:54

Yeah. There, at The Collab Lab, I learned a lot, like, mainly learned how to collaborate because being a self-taught developer are working by yourself. Like, 100% by yourself. So you don't know how to use, like-- not really how to use GitHub, but how to use some features of GitHub. So you don't know how to open a pull request, you don't know how to fix conflicts, you don't know how-- yeah, you got me. So-- yeah. Actually, like, the Virtual Coffee, like, Hacktoberfest challenge already helps me with GitHub. Like, I got familiar with GitHub a little bit and I make some contribution. But it's different on The Collab Lab because you are working-- like, for over two months, you are collaborating with three peoples and you have mentors also, like, they are helping you--

Bekah: 14:50

What you said also really resonated with me because I went to a bootcamp but it was self-paced. So I wasn't working with other people either. And I remember-- so, for anybody that doesn't know, Dan was the first person to hire me out of bootcamp. And we were, like, going through all of this stuff, and-- actually, it was four years ago. I think I started July 1st-- anyway, side- side note [chuckles]. But-

Dan: 15:15

Long ago.

Bekah: 15:16

-[chuckles] it-- I remember he- he was walking me through it. He was like, "Yeah, you just work through the issue and then when you're done, you create a pull request." And I was like, "Okay. I know what a pull request is. I've done that once or twice [laughs]." But, like, now, I'm like, "Okay, that seems like something that's really basic." But even in bootcamp, I was working on my own projects. And so I wasn't making pull requests. I- I once-- so, when I built my first website, it was my blogs, okay? And so I'm writing these blogs but I didn't even know that you could run it locally. And so I was just, like, pushing everything live, and then looking at it, seeing what worked and what didn't, and then, like, recommitting. I-- actually all that commit history is still there. So anybody can go and- and see what [laughs]-

Reda: 16:01

Yeah.

Bekah: 16:02

-what that process was like. It- it was a lot of, like, the basics. What- what I would see now as basics of writing commit messages, committing frequently, running things locally to test [chuckles] it before it goes live, and pull requests. Like, none of that stuff was natural to me after that experience or really emphasized as part of the process. And you were talking about freeCodeCamp because you're not really making pull requests there. And even-

Reda: 16:30

Yeah.

Bekah: 16:30

-when I did the projects, I was doing them in CodePen and- and-- so there's not branches or any concept of that kind of stuff. And that's integral to being able to work as part of a team.

Reda: 16:43

Yeah. I- I had this funny, like, the same issue. It's funny because I was working most of my projects, like, in freeCodeCamp at first, like, on CodePen. So after, like, the first time, I wanted to, like, do my project locally. I didn't know how to do it. So [laughs]-- yeah. That's also part of, like, filling the gap. It's- it's the very, very of the basics, but it's-- that you-- that-- it's- it's hard when you are a self-taught. You just don't know where to go. It's-- like, you- you don't have a plan, you know? FreeCodeCamp make it easier, but still, there- there are some gasp-- there are some gaps that you- you just don't know. Like, you- you didn't even know them to fix them, you know?

Bekah: 17:32

Right.

Reda: 17:33

But-- yeah. But when you are, like, interaction with other people-- so, here it come the roles of communities and-- The Collab Lab, Virtual Coffee. When you're interacting with people, you see their problems, you see what they are doing, and you're learning from them, and you got some guidance.

Bekah: 17:53

Yeah, I feel like I also formed some bad habits during that time period because I was just working by myself. And-- so I didn't know that there were other ways of doing things. And that was also something that I had to kind of navigate and work through. And I don't know if you had that experience as well.

Reda: 18:11

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the same here. It was of lots of things that you do. For example, I- I didn't even know that you can fork a repo, you know? So [chuckles] it was, like, if I wanted to do something with her, I would just try to push directly to it. It doesn't matter if- if it's mine or if it's someone's projects, so-- yeah. Yeah. It- it- it also, like, when you are coding, you don't know if what you are doing is the right way, you know? Or if it's the best way and so on.

Dan: 18:45

Yeah, totally. I-- there's so many valuable aspects of having, you know, working together on a team with some people, even if you're-- or- or just having extra eyes on it, right- right? Like- like you were saying, you- you just don't know-- you can hope that you-- whatever you're doing is the best way, you know? But having- having extra people, it-- it's just always so valuable. And whe- as far as, you know, some of the open source stuff, you know, like, forking, right? Like, I have been working on- on GitHub in my, like, small team for work, for years, before I ever forked any repositories, right? Because if you're on-- if you're in an organization, you don't need necessarily to fork-- you know, create your own forks. You- you- you just create branches and do that stuff. So I was comfortable with that but I had not- not, like, ever done that whole flow, right? Until-- honestly, until-- I mean, I think I'd done it a little bit before Virtual Coffee but I really, you know, actually understood it much better [chuckles] once we got into Virtual Coffee, and started doing some of those open source contributions, and-- yeah. There's just-- there's just-- when you're-- when you're by yourself as a solo person, it can be fun and it can be interesting. But-- yeah. I always had that sense, I'm sure there's something missing [laughs]. I'm sure there's some, you know, some pieces that I'm- I'm not seeing or- or whatever. And it's- it's just so nice to be able to have other people are, like, hanging around and- and- and, you know, working together on- on things.

Reda: 20:03

Yeah. I think that the first repo I- I forked was Virtual Coffee, like, repo. Yeah [chuckles].

Dan: 20:12

It's a good one.

Bekah: 20:14

And that- that [laughs]-- and that's one of the reasons why our documentation for Virtual Coffee-- to contribute is very thorough. Like, maybe it's a little bit too thorough. I'm not sure. But because a lot of the people that are contributing are in the same situation that we have both been in where we don't have that experience of forking or what is a commit? How do you create a branch? And just to make sure that we're able to support those people as part of that process and decrease the friction for people to be able to contribute, I think is really important. And- and the same thing goes for people who have been working for years. But like Dan said, they- they don't have to fork anything. I just taught an intro to open source workshop a couple of weeks ago and I had to talk about forking a repository. And so I, like, went through and I practiced because I honestly don't know when the last time I had to fork a repository was. And- and it is those little things that become really important. And- and so I wanted to know — this is, like, my very longwinded way [chuckles] of saying — you talked about this open source experience that you had and you participated Hacktobershi- you're- you're rocking your Hacktoberfest shirt today-

Reda: 21:27

Yeah.

Bekah: 21:28

-which is awesome. But can you talk a little bit about where that was at in your journey and what kinds of things that you were able to accomplish during that Hacktoberfest?

Reda: 21:37

Yeah, sure. It's- it's actually was, like, after finishing, like, freeCodeCamp. It's-- I- I was in a-- okay. This is, like-- just, like, side story. It's not, like, really answering the question. So the-- I- I was pretty much desperate after finishing freeCodeCamp. I had HTML, CSS knowledge, basic knowledge. I had JavaScript knowledge. But I didn't know how to connect, like, between them. I- I had no idea how-- okay. There is HTML, CSS, there is a JavaScript, but I had no idea how to use both of them. And on freeCodeCamp, it wasn't there anything also, you know? So after JavaScript, there is directly React-- actually, front-end libraries. So I- I was lost. I was totally lost. I was desperate. And at that moment, I was actually thinking to give up because, you know, imposter syndrome. I was thinking that I'm low and I don't know how to do things. So I- I was thinking, "Maybe," like, "it's not for me," you know? Even though it has nothing to do with me, I just lack something, you know? There is something missing and I don't know about it. So I posted in the freeCodeCamp forum about it. So I- I said-- I- I literally saying like, "I am done. I'm about to give up and I don't know what to do next. I have no idea." And people there were very supportive, you know? They — thanks for them by the way — they were-- they were very supportive and they told me like, "You just need this-- the- the document objects model. DOM. So you can, like-- for manipulating, like, the HTML documents, and the browser document, and so on." So-- and why I'm telling you this story is because at that same thread, Jessica told me about Virtual Coffee. And when I joined Virtual Coffee after that, directly, like, you were doing the Hacktoberfe- the Hacktoberfest, like, challenge. And from there, I got some energy. Yeah. I- I did-- I did something and, like, I was, "Yeah, I'm- I'm able to do this. I can do this." So, back to the Hacktoberfest story. Well [chuckles]-- yeah. So, for Hacktoberfest, I had-- I had a mentor assigned, Justin. He was pretty much helpful. He told-- like, he told me a lot of stuff about, like, commits, how to fork, how to set up a stream, just lots of information. I don't remember that [chuckles]. I was like, "Okay. This is-- this is exciting," you know? "[Chuckles] Exciting and at same time, scary." All-- I didn't know all of that. I didn't know anything. So, yeah. He was, like-- he taught me all of that stuff and, like, give me some resources to- to search for open source projects. But the hardest part about that is finding issues. That's was the-- yeah. And that's an- that's another thing. So when you don't find issues or you-- there- there is-- there are issues, but the most of them you don't, like, you don't know how to do them. So I- I- I got, like, frustrated again. So I don't [chuckles]-- like, it's-- you think that it's you who don't know anything but actually, the- the tech industry is pretty, like, much broad, you know? There- there are a lot of stacks, there are a lot of things that you don't know of course. So-- yep. After that, I was, like, searching for things that I know-- I know how to do. So I was searching for some issues, I found, like, some, like, small projects. They are-- they were-- maybe they were also learners. They weren't, like- like, a big companies or anything. Maybe they were also learners or something like that. So I- I found this small [??] projects. Like, people that own that small projects. And I worked on small issues, for example, adding local storage to a to-do app. It was something out of my comfort zone but also, like, I know-- I- I- I know that I can do it, you know? So I did some of those issues and I also did one maybe for Virtual Coffee-- or two, I can't remember. Yeah. But that actually boost my- my, like, self-confidence, you know? I- I can do stuff than-- and- and that's what I was lucky than before, when I was just by myself. Like, every time-- every time I don't know how to do something or-- I'm- I'm blaming myself. And- and that was, like, the darkest points. Yeah.

Dan: 26:53

I think any developer who's been developing for an amount of time has gone through those- those- those times. I know I have a bunch of times over my career. And I- I thi- I mean, I'm glad-- I just wanna say thank you for sharing that because it's- it's- it's good for people to hear because-- especially when you are, like, you-- like, a lot of us are at the beginning kind of by yourselves and on your own. It can be hard to know that- that sort of thing is pretty common [laughs]. I feel like that-

Reda: 27:19

Yep.

Dan: 27:19

-feeling of- of "I don't know how to do this. I don't know how to do anything", you know, is un- unfortunately, I- I guess, a part of this-- part of this, like, world as far as I've can tell [laughs]-- and from my own experience and my-- experience of m-most of my friends. It-- i-it's, like, you just come across those- those times, you know? And I think it's a sign, honestly. I-- it's a sign that you're pushing yourself, you know, and trying to learn more. And I think it's, in general, a good sign, although it's not ever fun when you're-

Reda: 27:48

Yeah.

Dan: 27:48

-in the middle of it [laughs].

Reda: 27:51

Yeah.

Dan: 27:51

I think it's-- I think it's a good sign because it means you're- you're-- you know, you're learning, right? And you're trying things that you don't know necessarily how to do it at the beginning. And that's- that's something that- that, by myself, I've- I've run into as well as I realized that I'm just, like, have been very comfortable for a long time, you know, and just doing the same things. And so-some of it is a little bit boring but-- or-- like, there's a little bit of boredom that sits in but it's mostly just this sense-- again, it's that sense, you know, that you were talking about, where you know that there's something out there [chuckles] that you probably-

Reda: 28:22

Yeah.

Dan: 28:22

-could be doing better, or probably could be doing differently, or a-anything like that. And it-- and for me, it kind of creeps up on me. But then you-- once you start, like, stretching out again, you are risk-- run the risk of running into those feelings again [laughs]. So it's- it's a never ending cycle, you know? But I think it's a healthy one, in general. And I think it sounds like the ways that you've gotten through it are good in healthy ways, you know, to do it, you know? Finding communities, and finding people to work with, and-- I don't know, everything like that.

Reda: 28:53

Fi- finding inspiration also, like, there are some people in communities like that. They- they just inspire you and you wanna, like, be like them, you know? That keeps you, like, to- to push yourself, like, harder and just to not give up. Yep.

Dan: 29:08

Yeah, absolutely.

Bekah: 29:11

Okay. So I wanna move forward just a little bit on this journey cuz I know that there's-- okay. So you did freeCodeCamp, you did Collab Lab, and then you're interviewing for jobs. At what point did you decide, "I'm ready to interview for a role," and then what- what did that journey look like?

Reda: 29:30

Yeah. Well, I would-- if I-- if I wa- if I didn't join [chuckles] Virtual Coffee, again [laughs], I would never apply for jobs, I think. I remember my first-- my first, like, Coffee chat was- was about my-- I put the question about-- I asked a question about this-- about when you are ready to apply for jobs. And someone told me, "Yesterday." And- and-- yeah. And- and I- I-- that clicked, you know? So you- you just need to apply. You will never feel ready. It's, again, im-imposter syndrome, again. You will never feel that you are ready. You will never feel that you know enough to apply for job. So-- yeah. I think after- after, like, freeCodeCamp, directly, like-- not directly, but after finishing some React projects, after I had some React knowledge, I started applying for jobs. That's also as a pretty much hard. It was, like, the- the worst period I think, again, with frustration. And whenever I get a rejection, I blame myself. I take it personally, you know? Yep. So whenever I- I get rejection, I- I just, like, drop everything for two days [laughs]-- two or three days. I just drop everything and do nothing because it was, like, hard on me, you know? Because you- you kinda-- you don't know if the path you choose is correct, you know? There is this- this- this doubt about will you ever-- will you ever be able to do it, you know? There is also, like, the- the- the society, like, pression, you know? You are-- you are, like, without a job. You- you studied and you are doing nothing. It's not nothing. You are, like, you are actually, like, studying another thing. But what-- at-- there is always that question, "What if I failed?" You know? And rejections always remind- remind me of the-- of failing, you know, of the end. If- if maybe-- if- if- if it wasn't, like, the- the right path. If all what I was doing is just [chuckles]-- how I can say it? Yeah. I guess you got me [laughs].

Bekah: 31:58

Oh. I definitely get that. And it-- I even-- when I was laid off earlier this year, that-- it was such a weird space to be in. I'd never been laid off before and I was like, "I don't know. Maybe I should just not be in tech," like, "maybe this isn't for me," you know? And it- [chuckles] it really messes with your head, I think, when you start to second guess yourself and- and you feel that rejection in some way, whether or not, you know-- I went through layoffs, they said it was restructuring or whatever. So there was nothing that implied like, "You did a bad job, so you got fired," right? Or maybe the pandemic hits and you lose your job for a little while. But it-- no matter what, all of those things still feel-- they don't feel good and they make you question like, "Is this the right place for me?" And so, can you talk a little bit more about how you've navigated those frustrations? Cuz I know it's really hard out there for job seekers now, especially for folks looking for their first-

Reda: 33:00

Yep.

Bekah: 33:00

-job in tech.

Reda: 33:02

Yeah, sure. I mainly was, like, taking rest as I said before. Like, if-- [chuckles] I don't know if this is, like-- if this is really the good way to go but I was doing that. I was taking rest for-- so, for a day, for two days, I just don't do anything just to- to get to myself, you know? Because trying to learn new things or trying to do, like-- or trying to, like, prepare your resume, or your cover letter, or whatever you are doing to-- for the job hunting while you are in a bad state of mind, when you're, like, so frustrating, it would just make it worse, you know? And- and I even did experience that. So for example, if I got a rejection and I try to apply for another job, like, the same day or something like that, I- I find myself for-- okay. For- for example, if I try to- to apply to- to a job, I- I will just, like, look. And they will say, okay, I am unqualified, you know? I'm not good for- for applying for this. So that rejection will affect you. So what I was doing is just, like, resting a little bit, maybe try to focus on learning new things. Yeah. That-- that's it mainly. And-- yeah. I will try to came up with something else. I can't [chuckles]- I can't think of any right now.

Bekah: 34:30

I love that. I think that it can be really hard to take a rest and then what you do is just burn yourself out during the job search. And that idea of learning something new I think is really good. Because you also start to feel like stagnant when all you're doing is applying for jobs and so you're not learning. And there's-- I don't wanna say a balance cuz I don't know that there can be balance when you're interviewing for a role. But it- it helps to keep your morale up, I think, a little bit when you can see like, "Hey, I did this thing today and now I know something new," versus, "I did these interviews today and I didn't get a job," which feels bad. So you gotta, like, fill up that win bucket a little bit somehow, and it's often not going to be through interviewing.

Reda: 35:12

Yeah. I was also, like, in the meanwhile, like, preparing for quizzes for interview questions. So it was-- I think that the hardest part in this part of the journey is to- to, as you said, is to have a balance between learning, and applying for roles, and, like, studying for interviews. It's- it's- it's just a mess [chuckles]. But one thing also that helps me is the community, again. So being inside the community, you see that there are a lot of people like you, you know? And the moment they got the-- their first job or they got the-- anyway, when- when- when they-- when they get their, like, the-- their dream job or whatever, it's- it's, like, kind of a motivation to you. So, again, [chuckles] finding community is, like, the-- was the key.

Bekah: 36:14

Yeah, I think that's so important. And so, how did you end up landing the job that you're currently at now?

Reda: 36:21

Yeah. I- I consider myself, like, lucky [chuckles], I guess. So I- I didn't actually apply for the job I am currently at right now. So they find me through GitHub. They, like-- they put, like, a query search there. So, you know, GitHub have this- this query search, you know? So you can put queries and you can, like, search for- for some criteria, you know? And I was-- yeah, again, I was lucky that I was part of those people. So they contact me on LinkedIn-- ah, sorry. I- I was lucky that I was part of the result of the search [laughs]. Yeah. So, they contact me, like, on LinkedIn, and they said, "Hi, we find your profile interesting, and we would like to talk about the ...," yeah. So I said, "Okay, we can talk." We- we, like, schedule, like, a meeting. I thought it was just a meeting to talk about, like, how things will go, you know? What's they're looking for, what they are, and so on. But it turns out, like, it's an interview and [laughs]-- yeah. But it was pretty much smooth. They- they were, like, cool people. It was pretty much smooth because- because I-- when I asked how, like, they choose me, actually they said, like, they- they- they went through the code, actually, you know? They went through my code, they went through my projects. So I think that the process of hiring is- [chuckles] is the main cause why I- I am where I am right now. Yeah. So I-- it's may not be the- the case for- for everyone, but just put yourself out there, you know? If you have any projects, even if they are small or if they are, like, really not that interesting. I don't wanna say that they're not interesting but just put your projects out there. Put them on Twitter, GitHub, everywhere. And-- yeah. That's it. So-- anyway, sorry, I [laughs]--

Bekah: 38:38

Don't be sorry.

Reda: 38:38

Yep. So after the interview, I-- they actually, like, just sends me the- the offer. Yeah.

Bekah: 38:47

Wow.

Reda: 38:48

Yeah, it was pretty-- so they-- it was kinda like the- the moment they contact me, they already made their mind that they're gonna hire me. So it was just about if I say yes or no. So-- yeah.

Bekah: 39:02

That's awesome. Is it a company in your country?

Reda: 39:06

Yeah, it's in my country but it's remote. It's 100% remote. So yeah. It was actually too good to be true. So [laughs]--

Bekah: 39:16

[Chuckles] I almost [??] like- like the idea of a surprise interview cuz then you're not really nervous if you just think that you're going in to talk to them and then they're [chuckles] like, "Oh, surprise interview." And you're like, "Well, I didn't have the last three days to panic. So I guess, here I am." Like [laughs]--

Reda: 39:28

Yeah, yeah. But- but it- it wasn't any hard, you know? It was more of a discussion than an interview, you know? But it- it- it was, like, the first and the final [laughs]. So it's-- it was pretty much good. Because I had-- previously, I had some pretty much bad experience with going through three interviews and in the end getting, like, rejected. So-- [chuckles] yeah.

Bekah: 39:52

Do you-- did you find, like, living in Morocco, that the job search was even more challenging if you were looking for remote work?

Reda: 40:00

It was more challenging for me because I didn't have-- I didn't have a degree, you know? I didn't have a degree in computer science. I have a degree in marine mechanics, but not in computer science. And in Morocco, it's- it's kinda-- I di- I wasn't even applying for jobs in Morocco because I thought it's- it's impossible for me to get a job here.

Bekah: 40:24

Wow.

Reda: 40:24

As most of companies, they are, like, asking for a degree, you know? And the funny thing is, during my interview with my current company, the first thing I said is, "I don't have a degree. Just for information, I don't have a degree in computer science." But surprisingly, they said like, "What matter is talent and not, like, a piece of paper." And that was, like-- e-even if I didn't, like, get in the- the company, that was a boost for me. Yeah.

Bekah: 40:59

That's awesome.

Dan: 41:00

It's good to hear. I mean, that- that- that aligns, I think, with a lot of the people that I end up, [chuckles] you know, enjoying working for, right? The- the degrees are-- I don't know. It's-- it almost seems silly sometimes. I mean, not that getting a degree is silly. But, like, the idea that in our field, a degree after four years, I feel like is going to be so out of date [chuckles] to be almost-- I-- not useless, obviously. You-- like, in college, I think the important thing is to, like, learn how to learn, right? That's- that's more-- you know? But at the same time, somebody with a- a certain amount of experience is going to have the same, if not a better, you know, handle on all that stuff than somebody who just-

Reda: 41:38

Yeah. Yeah.

Dan: 41:39

-going [??] to college, you know?

Reda: 41:40

That's- that's a good point because that-- the current company, like, they told me that they interview, like, people with degrees and, like, engineers, you know, like, before me. But the- the only difference is I had projects. I had, like-- I know how to search for information and how-- I know how to learn by myself. Yeah. And, like, one of the plus for me is that I was a self-taught developer. So they know, like, they- they won't need-- it-- it's just a sign that you can learn by- by yourself, you know?

Dan: 42:20

Yeah, a hundred percent with that. I mean, that-- that's always-- that's always gonna be a- a point in your favor in my book. Just-- I mean, as a self-taught developer myself [laughs], you know? I mean, but I know-- I understand, like, what the struggles are and, like, how much it takes to continue through that process, you know, and that career. And so I-- that-- that's-- I was just glad to hear that, you know [chuckles], you found a place that- that respects that sort of thing-

Reda: 42:44

Thank you, thank you.

Dan: 42:44

-because it-- it's not always, you know, it's- it's-- you're not-- not everybody's gonna feel the same way and-- I don't know. It's nice to hear when- when that sort of thing works out well like it has in your case.

Reda: 42:55

Yeah.

Bekah: 42:57

Well, Reda, we wanna thank you for being here with us today. Are there any new-- last words of advice that you have for our listeners about their job search or being self-taught?

Reda: 43:08

Yeah. Thanks for having me. And I know, like, the- the situation in the US — I don't know if it's in all the world [??] — but it's pretty much tough with the-- with all the layoffs happening-- the layed offs happening. So-- yep. Stay- stay strong, and you can do it. Yeah.

Dan: 43:32

Okay. Alrite. Well, cool. Well, thank you, Reda, for joining us so much and-- yeah. We will catch everybody next week. Alrite. Thanks, Reda.

Bekah: 43:41

Bye.

Reda: 43:42

Thank you.

Dan: 43:46

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Virtual Coffee Podcast. This episode was produced by Dan Ott and Bekah Hawrot Weigel, and edited by Ashley Mulder. If you have questions or comments, you can hit us up on Twitter @VirtualCoffeeIO or email us at podcast@virtualcoffee.io. You can find the show notes, sign up for the newsletter, buy some VC merch, and check out all of our other resources on our website, virtualcoffee.io. If you're interested in sponsoring Virtual Coffee, you can find out more information on our website at virtualcoffee.io/sponsorship. Please subscribe to our podcast and be sure to leave us a review. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next week.

The Virtual Coffee Podcast is produced by Dan Ott and Bekah Hawrot Weigel and edited by Dan Ott.