Seth Hall - From Film Production to Technical Product Owner: A Career Changer's Story

Season 6, Episode 3 | August 9, 2022

Bekah and Dan talk to Seth Hall, a Technical Product Owner at Uniform. He talks about the importance of fostering authentic company culture, as well as how his search to find a challenging, fun, and flexible job led him from Film Production, to Frontend Developer, to his current role.

Seth Hall

Seth is a Technical Product Owner at Uniform

Show Notes:

In today's episode, Dan and Bekah talk with Seth Hall about the importance of intimate collaboration, advocating for yourself, and transferable skills as part of his job as a Technical Product Owner at Uniform. He shares how his background as a creative producer informs how he guides demo initiatives, creates roadmaps, and collaborates with other departments.

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Transcript:

Bekah Hawrot Weigel: 00:05: Hello, and welcome to Season 6, Episode 3 of the Virtual Coffee podcast. I'm Bekah. And this is a podcast that features members of the Virtual Coffee community. Virtual Coffee is an intimate group of developers at all stages of their coding journey. And they're here on this podcast, sharing their stories and what they've learned. And we're here to share it with you. Here with me today is my cohost, Dan.
Dan Ott: 00:29: Wuddup, Bek! How's it going?
Bekah: 00:32: [Chuckles] It is ... amazing.
Dan: 00:34: [Laughs] I'm serious. It- it- it just gives me so much energy coming in like that. I- I- I can't- I can't- I can't do anything else anymore.
Bekah: 00:42: I-it is what it is.
Dan: 00:47: [Laughs] Yeah. So today we are continuing our streak of awesome guests that started Season 1 Episode 1 [laughs] with Seth Hall. Seth is a Technical Product Owner at Uniform. And -- so, one of the questions you might ask is, what is a technical product owner mean? And I'm glad you asked that because Seth talked about it. He explained what that means, and why he's so happy in that role. It's sort of a organic transition for him, from being a, you know, a -- I was gonna say regular developer, but that's not- that's not fair. But, you know, being an [chuckles] individual contributor developer to this new role as a product owner.
Bekah: 01:26: Yeah.
Dan: 01:27: It was really cool to hear about.
Bekah: 01:28: Well, and I love, too, he talked about his transferable skills as a creative producer. So his background in filmmaking and how he brought that over to what he's doing now. Which for me, was a really interesting exploration of, you know, overlapping that creative process with what he's doing as a technical product owner.
Dan: 01:49: Yes. Absolutely. The- the idea of a producer in, you know, everybody's heard of a producer in- in the entertainment industry, and movies, and TV. And, of course, there's not always a lot of clarity about what a producer does [chuckles] in -- for a movie, but- but the ... oh, man. Now I can't remember what kind of producer he said he's. The one that does what he's doing. Do you remember what it is?
Bekah: 02:11: Creative producer.
Dan: 02:12: Creative producer. Okay. And so a creative producer is a person who's kind of responsible for shepherding a -- the- the project, you know, from beginning to end, and make a lot -- make connections between people, and doing a lot more than, you know, maybe a project manager or something like that role -- kind of role. And it was really cool. And I- I- I love the ... I love that idea. And I lo- [chuckles] I love, like, placing these- these frameworks -- mental frameworks from other industries on top of dev stuff, and- and seeing how we either have a role that's like that, and it's just name something different, or- or maybe something, you know, the- the dev industry can actually use to be- become better, you know? And I think -- I feel like creative producer here is like one of those- one of those, like, really cool -- it- it, likes, I dunno. It seemed like a very cool idea to me [chuckles].
Bekah: 02:59: Yeah. And I love how he talked about — he used the phrase 'intimate collaboration' — and I think that that sums up what really makes somebody good at that job. But th-that's one of those things that -- it's- it's not a common phrase or a common idea when you're thinking about what a technical product owner does, or a producer, but that -- those connections are what really allow people to be successful.
Dan: 03:24: Yeah, absolutely. It was- it was cool. It was very good talking to Seth.
Bekah: 03:28: Yeah. And we start this episode of the podcast like we start every Virtual Coffee. With our names, where we're from, what we do, and answering a random check-in question. So we hope you enjoy this episode. Today's random check-in question is, describe a time you laughed so hard you thought you would cry or when you did cry. I'm not sure if that makes sense. What was so funny? [Laughs] Did you ge-
Dan: 04:04: Did you read that question before ... just now? What is- what is happening?
Bekah: 04:07: I did! When we were setting up the- the podca- when scheduling everybody. I put questions in all of them. So it's been a minute.
Dan: 04:15: Okay, okay, okay.
Bekah: 04:16: [Chuckles] My name is Bekah. I am a technical community builder. And laugh so hard that I cried. I feel like these -- those moments are great, and I can remember them happening and who they happened with, but I cannot remember why they happened. So, like, normally, it's with people I'm very close friends with or with my brothers -- usually it's my brothers. And I'm usually laughing at them, and not with them [chuckles]. So, I don't know. I have to think about that more. But I guess I'm laughing so -- oh. I'm trying to think, there was one, that was recently. I was laughing so hard [silence] I don't know. I have to come back to it. Sending it over to you, Dan.
Dan: 05:09: All right. Hello. My name is Dan. I am from Lakewood, Ohio, the first suburb west of Cleveland. I do web development. And, yeah. I have- I have these- I have these laughing issues from time to time. Honestly, mostly with my family. I don't- I don't know exactly why. But, yeah. And my mom gets it too. So sometimes I'll just like have to cover my face and, you know, be laughing a lot, and probably crying in. The one time that really ... comes to mind ... ha- have you guys seen the -- this, like, the screaming goat videos?
Seth Hall: 05:44: Yes.
Dan: 05:44: Like, they were, like, popular a while ago. And, there's -- so there's one that's like a -- there -- so people started mixing 'em into songs, you know? And the -- and there's like this -- the- the Taylor Swift song, the ... that's like the ... [singing] I know you were trouble. Or how's that song go?
Bekah: 06:00: [Singing] I know you-
Dan: 06:00: Some -- there's some -- but there's-
Bekah: 06:02: -you walked in --
Dan: 06:04: -there's some part of that hook, and then there's the screaming goat. And it, like, just kills me every time. And I -- we were like playing it on my phone, you know, with- with my family in, like, the living room [laughs]. And I just like -- I could, like -- I was laughing for probably, like, 15 minutes [laughs]. Cuz my sister started -- just every time I'd calm down, she'd played it again, you know? That was it.
Bekah: 06:20: There- there was a --
Dan: 06:21: [Laughs] I cannot stand this.
Bekah: 06:22: I -- it was an Instagram reel or a TikTok, that was similar. Where somebody was going to film themselves, and while -- before they got started, they accidentally like threw their hip into the side of the bed, and they-
Dan: 06:35: Oh, yeah [chuckles]. I saw that.
Bekah: 06:35: -screamed out, and then, everybody remixed it. So they screamed like, "Ah!" And so then people are like, "Eh," you know, like, staying alive. "Ah!" it would start with that, and then somebody would go on? [Seth laughs] That was really good.
Dan: 06:48: All right. Wait. I think I can- I- I think I can -- oh, can I change my microphone while we're recording? That possible? Might not be possible. I was gonna play it for everybody, but ... I don't think I --
Bekah: 07:00: Link- link in the show notes.
Dan: 07:02: Yep. I'll put the link in the show notes so that we don't -- I'll have to listen to me breaking down again [chuckles]. Probably a good call.
Bekah: 07:08: I used to laugh so hard when we started the podcast.
Dan: 07:14: Yes. That was always fun. It was fun making that happen.
Seth: 07:17: It was out of nervousness maybe? Or out of fun?
Bekah: 07:18: It was. It was, like, straight up nerv-
Seth: 07:20: The red light- red light syndrome?
Dan: 07:21: Yeah.
Bekah: 07:21: Dan would be like, "Go!" And I'd start the intro, could not hold it together. Could not! It took me -- like, even if I was recording it by myself, it took a really long time. Maybe Season 2 is when I finally calmed down [chuckles]. Like --
Dan: 07:32: Yeah.
Seth: 07:33: Yep, yep.
Dan: 07:34: Yeah. I- I also, like, the -- like, times where you are really not supposed to laugh, but you're -- like, standing in front of someone, whatever, but you make eye contact with- with one of your friends or-
Seth: 07:44: Oh, yes. Sure.
Dan: 07:43: -you know, somebody who knows you're trying not to laugh or whatever, tho- those are always really fun for me too [chuckles]. Except when I'm [unintelligible] --
Seth: 07:49: That's a good- that's a good segue into mine. My name is Seth Hall. I'm a Technical Product Owner at Uniform. And for me, laughter has been a huge part of my life, just with all my friends. You know, I think it initially started as a coping mechanism, just from my childhood. But I was always like cracking up in school, in -- I mean, I remember one time, my cousin and I were at a funeral or something. We were, like, eight years old at a funeral. And, like, we had to be separated. We were laughing so hard. But we, like, found each other through the pews, you know, across the whole church and we're still cracking up, you know? And so, laughter has been a great medicine for me, but it's got me in trouble a lot. But- but, yeah. So it's just like such a healing thing for me. And I- and I still have great friends that we just instantly crack up with- with our inside humor, right? I mean, no one else think it would -- no one else would think it was funny, but- but, yeah. So I -- I'm like Bekah. I can't think of a specific time, you know, another specific time, but it's always been a constant kinda thing for me. And- and it -- if I can laugh with you, then I'm already feel like a halfway, like, you're my best friend, you know what I mean? And then if we can talk about, like, deep stuff, like, real authentic stuff, then we're like, we're best mates. So ... but, yeah.
Bekah: 09:04: Yeah. There --
Dan: 09:05: Yeah, absolutely.
Bekah: 09:07: I -- that reminded me of a time. I was at church with a classmate. And one of us, we're like singing in church, right? And saying the wrong verse, right? And it's, like, very loudly. And then there was like, no [Seth laughs], no, coming back-
Seth: 09:23: Yeah. Yeah.
Bekah: 09:24: -laughing so hard. We were definitely crying. Somebody had to get up and leave because it was just, like, totally inappropriate-
Seth: 09:30: Yeah.
Bekah: 09:30: -and disruptive. Which, like, makes it even funnier [laughs], in a way? I feel like- like --
Seth: 09:33: Would be even funnier. Yeah. I mean, I- I hate to even think about what my to- put my teachers through in school. I mean ... I just was like -- it- it- it, for me, like, if I had known comedy was actually a- a- a career, back in then -- like, nowadays people- people, like, "Oh, you gotta improv, and all these different YouTube things," and, like, people go, "I wanna be a comedian." They go and they pursue that. But I never even knew it was a career, but I listened to comedy constant- constantly growing up. And then the thrill of making people laugh, which was what I did a ton of, it just, like, was like a huge, like, thrill. I mean, it was great. And I, like, couldn't get enough of it. And to the point where I said it was- it was actually disrespectful, you know, now that I look back [chuckles]. But that's- that's part of being -- part of growing up, I guess. Being young, and immature, and stuff.
Bekah: 10:20: Yeah, always. I always -- if there were a personality trait that I could just, like, download into my brain, it would be m-making people laugh. I don't know. That's not really a personality trait.
Seth: 10:29: Oh, yeah.
Bekah: 10:29: But you know what? [Chuckles] I always would love to make people laugh. My grandma was really great at it. And I always wish that, like, I had that same ability because it kind of what you're saying, Seth, that idea of you -- if you can laugh together with somebody, then you're friends, and then that does often lead to that opportunity to dive deeper into things. Because there's this almost like built in trust that happens when you can-
Seth: 10:53: Yeah.
Bekah: 10:53: -get into that deep laughter together.
Seth: 10:55: That's right. Totally.
Bekah: 10:57: Well, thanks --
Seth: 10:58: It's a good question.
Bekah: 10:59: Yeah. Yeah! I what -- now, I'm like, what is the neurobiology of laughing together? [Seth laughs] Thanks for being here with us today, Seth. We're very-
Seth: 11:08: My pleasure.
Bekah: 11:08: -excited to have you on the podcast.
Seth: 11:10: Thanks for having me. It is awesome.
Bekah: 11:12: Yeah! We always like to start with origin stories. So how have you got to this point in your world -- of your- your journey of Seth -- being Seth Hall?
Seth: 11:23: Yeah, sure. I'll- I'll give you the- I'll give you the short version [laughs]. Yeah. So, for me ... let's just -- I'll just start with kinda ... how I ended up in development. Like, wh-when I was -- I know -- I always liked creative stuff growing up. I was always ... I- I grew up in a single family home. I had a lot of, like, time to myself and- and- and music was a big escape for me. So when I became an adult, you know, all I just say when -- in my 20s, I was like, "I am gonna do something different. I'm not gonna do a typical path that you take or you're told that you're supposed to take." So, I graduate- graduated from college, and then went and pursued music. So I played independent music for, you know, for a long time. I also did video production and film production during all that time. And then I continued, you know, did music for about -- pretty hardcore for 15 years. Then I just kind of transitioned into the video, film, and then I kinda got into digital stuff, got my first computer, and was like, you know, graphic design, learning how to log into web apps, and all that kind of stuff, back in 2006. And then 2011, in the middle of my film and video pursuits, I started making websites. And it wasn't really planned. It just kinda happened. And so I started teaching myself WordPress and all that- all that stuff, you know? That kinda normal story. I got my first tech job in 2013. During that job, I wa- I decided I wanna go get my master's in film producing. So I went to a film school here, in North Carolina, called University of North Carolina School of the Arts. And ... that was a great experience. I loved it. I took a break from coding for a while to produce videos for the school, actually, in their marketing department. I made like three or four short films. But then I got to a point where I was like, "Okay. I don't really wanna make videos anymore cuz I've done that so much. Filmmaking doesn't pay." I thought, "Well, maybe I'll do like a -- go back into development or maybe I'll -- maybe do something developer adjacent." So I, like, thought about being a Scrum Master, you know? I was like, "I've worked in Agile." And so I kinda pursued that a little bit. And then I realized, "You know what? I really like development." So I -- so two thou- and it -- just, you know, it's- it's -- a lot of opportunities, and it pays well, and it's fun, and challenging. So back in 2019 December, I jumped back in full force, and shortly after, I joined Virtual Coffee, you know? And- and so, for all of 2020 and all of 2021, I basically was doing front-end development. Multiple contracts, some of 'em were toxic. Some of 'em were -- didn't value me. Like, they weren't great experiences. But I just kept pursuing, kept pursuing, kept pursuing. And then I found a job at Uniform -- a job posting at Uniform. I -- it sounded just like me. It was- it was working in the Jamstack as a front-end developer. It wasn't a ... product. It was, like, demos. So, like, our internal team demos our product with, like, fake websites, essentially. So I was like, "Oh, that's great." I can make -- basically make client websites without the client, you know? I can make -- I can be a part of a product team without being on the product team, you know? And so, I got hired as a demo engineer, and I've been working for them for about four months now, maybe five months. But shortly after I got hired, it was -- it be-became evident that ... what they really needed was someone to 'own' the demos. Like, product own the demos, not actually code the demos. So I transitioned to a technical product owner where I'm working with designers, tech lead for developers, marketers, sales engineers, like, I'm working with a lot of people to kinda guide all the demo tracks and demo initiatives we have. But I'm- I'm -- like, now, I'm planning roadmaps. I'm- I'm- I'm basically producing. Like I- like I did in film, like, was -- with film, I used to do camera sound, editing all the stuff. Then I moved to producing where I was, like, hiring those people, and knew what they were doing, and I was planning the project. Well, now, it's- it's -- an interesting equivalent is I'll -- I used to be in the trenches of front-end as y'all know, cuz we've talked many times about it. But now I'm, like, planning that stuff. So I'm- I'm not the developer, but I'm a developer adjacent. So my initial, you know, thought back in 2019, where maybe I could do something developer adjacent, has like come to fruition, like, on accident. And I am absolutely loving it. So- so that's kind of where and how I ended up here. You know, to me, development is very much aligns with my- my goals in life. It's, like, it's- it's creative, it's challenging, it's fun, it's flexible. It doesn't rule my life, you know? I get to go to work in my office, and get to leave, and be with my family. So, like, everything I wanted when I was 20, when I pursued music and film, I have f-found that. I have found autonomy, good pay, satis- satisfactory work. And I'm not -- like, it's very unique too, in- in- in a way. Even though there's a lot of developers, it's still a unique way to make a living. Cuz most people I talked to don't do what I do. So it all -- it fit -- checks all the boxes for me. So- so, yeah. That's- that's kind of my origin story and- and- and -- a professional origin story. And I'm very happy where I am. I'm, like, I haven't been happier in- in the- in the- in the tech -- in my tech career than I am now. So --
Bekah: 16:38: Yeah, I love that. I wanna backtrack just a second. And so, you've done a lot of different things. I love how you say that this kind of, like, mimics some of the things that you were doing before with producing, and how those skills lead here. But-
Seth: 16:52: Mm-hmm.
Bekah: 16:52: -was there, like, a pivotal moment for you when you decided that you were ready to make this transition? Because, you know, I think it's sometimes hard to -- you're kind of toying with the idea or maybe you take on a little bit of side work, but at some point, you have to say, "There's a career transition and now I'm going to go all in."
Seth: 17:13: Yeah. So from, like, film to web was literally wasn't planned at all. It was- it was -- I sort of just felt this call and this draw to do it. And all of a sudden I had four clients — four WordPress clients. And this is, like, had no experience. So I was doing all of the stuff you do to learn WordPress. And of course, that's not the best platform to learn on because it's super confusing.
Bekah: 17:33: Yes.
Seth: 17:34: But I mean -- but that's good. I was in the trenches. So it was never a conscious effort. It was just something that I ended up doing and I just did it cuz I liked it. And I worked nights and weekends cuz I liked it. And then it started paying. Then I got my first tech job, you know? And- and so -- but the transition between a- a front-end engineer to a product owner that was very much ... a welcome transition. Because as y'all have seen or know, like, front-end development ... parts of it are ... easy? Quote, unquote, easy. But a lot of it is really difficult. And I just found myself -- I was just was getting tired of the grind. I was getting tired of like, not breaking through, and not, you know, not -- still not knowing stuff, and still not knowing how to learn stuff I don't know. And- and, yeah. I could, you know, put together a Jamstack site. I could do some product feature work and stuff, but it just got to be ... exhausting. And my skill sets are- are very much relational communicate- communicative, listening, validating, planning. I mean, I'm engineering. The-there's a -- my -- in my personal life, I'm, like, producing the biggest thing I've ever done, which might come up. But, like, my mindset and my default is like to dig in there and organize a- a big thing. And that could be a- a-a movie, that could be -- now it's a three different demo tracks, you know? And in- in my life, it's a, you know, other personal stuff that I'm ... producing, essentially. And so- so, yeah. So it was -- the- the initial thing wasn't a conscious effort. It really was outta nowhere. And I was kinda like, "What?" Like, "This doesn't make any sense. I'm trying to pursue film. What- what do you mean -- what's going on here?" But at -- it- it quickly became something like, "Okay, this is really good for me." Yeah.
Dan: 19:23: So you used the word 'producing' a few times there. And that's a word that you don't usually hear in the- the development, like, aside of things, right? But you hear it a lot in entertainment. And- and -- so, I was just wondering if- if there -- your experience with ... you know, in- in film school and stuff like that ... you know, the producer of ik- I'm not in the entertainment [laughs]. I- I listen to some podcasts and stuff, you know, but like-
Seth: 19:45: Yeah.
Dan: 19:45: -if- if there's- if there's some bit of that you took away, from the -- from film school to guide your work now a-as a- as a sort of [unintelligible], you know?
Seth: 19:54: 100%. Totally, totally. You- you know, in- in- in software, we'd call it project management, I guess. You know?
Dan: 20:00: Yeah, right. But that's, like, yeah. That's the -- I don't feel like that covers every -- to me, the- the word 'producer' has- has a- a bit of a different connota- I mean, it's close, you know? It's overlap.
Seth: 20:08: Yeah.
Dan: 20:09: But, like, a bit of a different connotation, I think. It's a good word to use, but I'd like to hear what you -- like --
Seth: 20:13: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I- so I got my ma-
Dan: 20:14: Wh- what do you think of it -- what do you think of that?
Seth: 20:16: Yeah, it's a good question. I got my master's in creative producing, which -- so, in film, there's a lot of different producers. There's, like, your boots on the ground producer, there's- there's associate producers, there's executive producers who, like, fund it or make a connection, and they get a credit. But then the creative producer is the one that, like, comes up with the idea or, like, options of script. Bekah, you know about this. And then they- they hire the writer. They- they- they develop the script. And then they take the script into ... raising money or- or making a pitch deck to raise money. And then they take that money, and they go into pre-production, and then they keep going through production, and post, and marketing, and distribution. So creative producer is like the unsung hero, essentially ... in film. Because most film, it- it falls on the director or the star of the movie. It -- but- but producer doesn't get much credit. But without the producer, it wouldn't even exist. And so ... all through that process, really, that- that process is all about, like ... it's all about, like, you know, for example, like, what are we trying to say? Like, you know, in a- in a- in a -- who's- who's our audience, right? Both of those things can translate to- to a product in- in software. And then like, who are the people I'm working with? How do I communicate with them ... that translates to software? And then- then the nuts and bolts of it all which is let's- let's- let's plan the project and actually do the work, same thing in software. And so, it- it -- I just -- it just seems like a perfect thing for me because it's, like, already what I was good at. And I've already got all the experience in it, and it 100% is transferable over to software. It's just different- different medium and different ways to do it. Like, you don't have editors and, you know, in software, but you have QA, you know, Quality and Assurance or whatever. You don't have sound audio mixers, but you have, you know, front-end developers or backend or security or whatever. So- so I learned a ton going to school. Like, I learned -- I- I took what I had already learned in life and then, like, just applied it to intimate collaboration and then, like, different personalities, and different cultures, and different ages, and different genders, and everything. Like -- cuz when I went to art school, I was like 20 years older than most people. And there was a ton of people that were just different than me. But I really just got to ... res- respect them, and see what they were about, and learn how to be with them, and learn how to deal with conflict, and- and- and learn how to persevere on a giant project that seems never ending. And that is software development in many ways. So, that's kind of what I transferred over and it feels -- it- it's just same skill set. Just different application, essentially.
Dan: 23:01: I love that. I love that a lot. And you hit one of our -- Virtual Coffee bingo words, which is intimate. And I think you-
Seth: 23:07: Yes.
Dan: 23:07: -used the phrase intimate collaboration, which I love. And- and it's -- it paints such a different picture that -- from that mindset, paints such a different picture than ... some of the software, like, when you come at it from the software land, everybody -- all -- software developers, lots of times, want to ... remove the human aspects of things, right? And they build tools to, like, plug things in or project management tools or, you know, everybody has stacks of cards to -- oh, I'm sorry. Everyone has stacks of cards to get through [chuckles]. And --
Bekah: 23:36: What do you think he was here [chuckles]?
Dan: 23:37: I know.
Bekah: 23:38: You didn't know there was a guest [chuckles]?
Dan: 23:38: He's always ... bothering me [chuckles].
Seth: 23:41: [Chuckles] Is he, like, bringing you a drink or something?
Dan: 23:42: Special guest. Yeah, I know. He's -- yeah, yeah. He's- he's -- he brings me my- my- my Scotch at the, you know, under my desk, the end of the day. Except, it's ... the middle of the day. Anyway [chuckles], what was I saying? So, yes. I think that- I think that's probably another connection between you -- the ... your experience within the entertainment, you know, i-in film -- in the film realm is- is making these connections is such an important thing. And it's- it's very important in software too. But I- I think it gets -- people tend to abstract it away. People tend to abstract away the human connection aspect of anything. And I feel like work -- everybody -- all -- we're all doing, and everybody sort of naturally does at Virtual Coffee, whether they are officially doing it or not. It's -- and I'm seeing other people start to swing this way too. It's -- lots of people talk about community these days, and building communities in your company, and- and things like making connections like that. And I think we're finding out, like, it's so important to foster those sort of intimate connections. A-and obviously, you can go probably too far [laughs] but, like-
Seth: 24:49: Sure.
Dan: 24:50: -remembering that all the people are people, right? And everybody that works on a project is -- has their own stake in it. And, you know, it- it's -- the project's gonna be better if you have somebody like that -- have somebody like you, you know? Fostering these intimate, you know, connections and stuff like that.
Seth: 25:03: Yeah. I mean, that's exactly right. I mean, and part of that is like, you know, we -- is giving shouts out to people, shoutouts to people, whatever you wanna say. Like, acknowledging people and- and- and celebrating them. Now you'd mentioned community and ... how it's kind of becoming more prevalent in software. And I'm -- to me, that's great. Cuz that's what it is -- that's what it's about for me, just in many ways, is- is friendship, and authenticity, and, you know ... intimate ... you know, friendships that are real. That- that like bring the joy in -- to life and bring- bring, you know, bring things to life. That's what it is for me. And- and -- so, you know, part of that is, like, you know, at work, I like to do shoutouts to people, and, like, really just celebrate people, and- and, you know, I'm- I'm a super positive, you know? I don't wanna have any conflict. If there is conflict, I'll deal with it. But like -- and I've had so many jobs where it's just, like, not like that at all. And it's so -- makes me so anxious and nervous, and I don't- I don't know how to find my footing, and- and, like, I just feel like undervalued and- and- and just not in the right place. And so at Uniform, like, it's the exact opposite. Like, everybody is super friendly, super laid back, just very welcoming. And- and a community, it's like -- culturally at Uniform is it -- the culture at Uniform is very ... like, on point. It's great. And it fits my personality, and I feel -- and, say, from that, I feel valued and I feel empowered to do really good work, right? I mean, that's how it works. You- you-
Bekah: 26:41: Yeah.
Seth: 26:41: -appreciate people and you're- you're- you're a nice pleasant people to be around. You're gonna wanna work hard and collaborate together to do things as opposed to feeling like you can't -- you're walking on thin ice or whatever, you know?
Bekah: 26:52: I- I love that. And I think that one of the things that you -- one of the words you used, au- authenticity, is so important. Because I think that there are a number of companies out there that recognize that community within the company is good and can be really useful, but they come at it from a n-not an authentic approach. Like, "We're gonna make this company a community," right? And then there's this forcefulness, like, "We're gonna be a community. Now you have to go to this fun thing that we're all doing together," right? Like-
Seth: 27:23: Yeah. Sure, sure.
Bekah: 27:24: -no, I don't wanna do that ... fun thing all together. There- there has to be ... that authenticity there that allows for vulnerability and openness. And, you know, I've also seen a number of leaders in positions that kind of [silence] I don't know the right word for this. They perform authenticity-
Seth: 27:50: Mm.
Bekah: 27:50: -so they act in a way that appears to be authentic, but, like, the further --
Seth: 27:57: Yeah. Whi- which is, inherently, not authentic. Yeah [chuckles].
Bekah: 27:59: Yeah! And the further you get into it, then it- it just like -- then- then the, like, suspicious radar goes up. Like, "Uh, I don't know that you're a person that I can really trust and talk to." And then that creates more of a divide. And when you have that, when you don't have somebody who's authentic or vulnerable or, you know, even getting back to that, like, intro question of somebody that you can laugh with, then you -- there's this distance. There's this guard that you can put up or that you might put up that makes it harder for you to be effective at your job or to communicate with other people, because there's always this, like, leeriness about where you stand in that, you know, relationship. Or in that collaboration or- or whatever it is. So I think that, you know, having someone authentic leading a team is so important in-
Seth: 28:57: Yeah.
Bekah: 28:57: -forming those bonds that you need for your company.
Seth: 29:01: Totally. We just implemented this thing called 15Five. It's a online web service that allows for, like, it manages one on ones, it manages, like, high fives. You can give, you know- you know, internal high fives. And it- and it really ... opens -- it fosters that kind of community and that kind of culture. And so that's why my- my company is -- series a funded startups. They're just beginning to, like, hiring, work on culture, and work on all that stuff that they, in the beginning, you don't do that cuz you're building a product to get the funding. But now that they have the funding, all these things are locking into place, and that -- it's just such a relief to- to know that that's there, and it, like, to not walk into -- to walk into work and not be anxious, and not be nervous, you know? I'm not dreading, like, "How am I gonna make this JavaScript thing happen [laughs]?" You know what I mean? Like, how am I gonna do this? Like, I should kn- and then start beating myself up. "I should know this already. I've been doing this for this long," and- and, anyway, a-a-and -- and that's just kinda highlight the importance of the -- of community. And I will say that, you know, when I discovered Virtual Coffee -- I don't even remember how I discovered it. I think it was through Drew Clements somehow. I don't remember --
Bekah: 30:16: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's true.
Seth: 30:18: I forget. I somehow found ... him, and then found Virtual Coffee. And it was like a huge breath of fresh air.
Bekah: 30:24: He was doing Protege. So, was it through Protege? I mean --
Seth: 30:26: Yeah, it was probably through that. I was probably looking thru- for jobs, and I saw him through Protege, and then I saw Virtual Coffee through him. And then I ended up working on Protege through that too, which was interesting. But i-i-it was such a -- the -- when I discovered Virtual Coffee, it was a ... godsend, essentially. Cuz we were in the middle of pan- I was in the middle of the pandemic, right? We were all in the middle of the pandemic. I had moved out to the mountains, which I like my -- I like being out in the mountains, but I also like people, you know? And I just -- it was -- it saved- it saved me in many ways. Cuz it helped me keep going as a developer, and it helped me develop friendships, and- and it's, you know, and that's- that's it. That's community, right? That's what community does. It- it- it kinda -- it gives -- it- it- it -- a lot of things start to bloom, right? All the different -- these beautiful things start blooming from it. And we can see it every day on our- on our Slack team is it -- like, people are doing this and doing that. And there's support here, there's support there. And then you got in person meetups, and it just -- and that's just a beautiful thing about the Virtual Coffee, I think. And- and I'm sure you never even expected that when you started it, you know? You ... might-
Bekah: 31:37: [Chuckles] Nope.
Seth: 31:38: -have thought something like- like- like it, but ... yeah. It just- it just all of us coming together to support each other really makes the -- makes the indus- makes our lives better, but it makes the industry better, I think.
Bekah: 31:50: Yeah, absolutely. I- I think that any opportunity that you have for that close collaboration with people, openness with other people can be ... just a -- I don't know. I mean, yeah, you can be more productive that way, but that's just a really beautiful part of the human experience. And I think that we often don't think about that, the -- we -- it's complicated, right? Because we want our jobs-
Seth: 32:15: Mm.
Bekah: 32:15: -to stop. We don't want them to go on all the time and to feel like we can never leave our computers, but there's something to be said for finding time to pause and make meaningful relationships with the people who are on your team.
Seth: 32:32: Yeah.
Bekah: 32:33: That- that helps you to be better, everybody to be better at their jobs. But, you know, ultimately we are not our jobs. We are human beings.
Seth: 32:41: Yep.
Bekah: 32:41: And so, what helps us to become better at that or to grow or to become the people that we want to be? Our jobs take up a big portion of our lives. So finding something that allows you to continue on that path of being the person that you want to be, and to be able-
Seth: 32:57: Yes.
Bekah: 32:57: -to do the things that you wanna do outside of work is really important.
Seth: 33:02: Yep, 100%. That was -- that's basically what my 20-year-old self was saying to myself [chuckles]. He was just like, "Seth, there's gotta be more." Like, "I- I- I need something meaningful. I- I need something that's just not like ... just a typical middle of the road," you know? And- and I'm- I'm not saying this for everybody, but it's pursuing -- I've always pursued my dreams, and my heart, and- and- and for good, you know, for better or for worse. And -- but it's gotten me this far, right? It's gotten me ... in a career that I love, being with my family every day, well paid, well respected, and creative. And like you said, it's not my life. My life is outside of work ... in many ways. So ... you know? Yeah, I feel like I won the lottery, essentially, in some ways. But I got -- but I spent a lot of money on lottery tickets [all laugh]. And went through a lot to get here. But --
Bekah: 34:05: And it's all part of the journey, right? I mean, I- I certainly never -- if five and a half years ago, if you would've asked me where I expected to be, it certainly was not here.
Seth: 34:16: Yeah.
Bekah: 34:16: There- there was a lot that went into this journey and a lot of, like, really hard things to navigate. But, you know-
Seth: 34:23: Yes.
Bekah: 34:23: -I wouldn't take any of those hard things back because it shaped me into the person I am, and I'm- I'm happy with who I am right now. Probably more than I ever have been in my life. And-
Seth: 34:35: For sure. Yep.
Bekah: 34:35: -you know, all of those circumstances and all of the people that I've met, especially in the last three years, have been on that journey with me and allowed me to, you know, kind of em- embrace this- this Bekah that ... I am right now.
Seth: 34:50: Yeah. Yeah. That's a good place to be.
Bekah: 34:52: So, okay. So as you're going through this, you have mentioned a couple of times. The -- you had some experiences with other companies that weren't so great, you went through some difficult interviewing experiences, and now you're- you're at this really great place. But I wonder if you could give yourself some advice, looking back now. So when you were going through these hard experiences. What would you tell yourself to kind of give you that hope that you needed to make it to this point?
Seth: 35:24: Yeah. I would just say, I mean, off the top of my head that like ... rejection's part of the process, and perseverance is key, and just ... it's really hard to do this. But most of the time, things aren't personal. Right? It's just ... in terms of interviewing, it's just, you wanna good fit or you bomb the interview or whatever. But to, like, separate your identity from that, and separate your ... how you feel about yourself and stuff. It's really hard when you need money, you need a job, and you have a family and stuff. You're super stressed about it, and- and then you gotta go do more interviews and stuff. But- but yeah, like, don't be hard on yourself, like, don't -- just trust -- I mean, this is a big part of my life. This is ... trust the process, right? Whether that be any films that I produce or all the day in and day out of what I'm doing for my work or even my family. It's just like, just do the work that's ahead of you for the day, clock out, enjoy your life, go back the next day, and do the work that's ahead of you. And just trust that that's the process and you will eventually get somewhere. And then I also am a big adver- I'm a big advocate in advocating for myself [chuckles], but [cough] I'm a big believer in ... like, standing up for yourself, believing in yourself, knowing what you want, like, going to get it. And that's not in like a greed, like, you know, a way of just like, "I wanna do this. I'm gonna work really hard to do this thing, whatever that is." And so, like, believing yourself, you know, extending grace to yourself ... 100% find people -- find your people who can help you, AKA Virtual Coffee [chuckles]. So yeah, I think- I think is -- off the top of my head, those would be some things I would say to myself. I would also be ... when you have a community, you can talk a- you can run red flags by people. You can say, "Hey, is this a red flag?" Or, you know, and if- if someone's mistreating you, stand up for yourself. I know that's not -- I know that's easy for me to say, for who I am, but not everybody can do that. But -- and I'm just happened to be comfortable with ... discomfort, I guess you could say. So like, if- if someone's treating me bad, I'm gonna ... stand up for myself. And try not to be a jerk about it. Try not to be combative, but ... just believe in myself and- and know what's right and what's wrong in a situation. But, I mean, you guys know it's so hard to -- when you're navigating interviews. It- it's like soul sucking. It's- it's -- it sucks.
Bekah: 38:24: Yeah. I remember — I think it was last summer, actually, at this time — I was interviewing with two companies and I had heard people say that the interview process was soul crushing. And I was like, "Eh, there's no way it's soul crushing." [Seth laughs] And then I was invited to apply to two of these positions and it was still soul crushing. I'm like-
Seth: 38:43: Mm.
Bekah: 38:43: "This is ... the worst."
Seth: 38:45: I know.
Bekah: 38:45: "I never want to do this, ever again."
Seth: 38:49: Yeah.
Bekah: 38:49: And it is. I mean, it just requires so much ... out of you in- in a number of different ways. And-
Seth: 38:56: Mm.
Bekah: 38:56: -just kind of is ... I don't know, puts you through this furnace. And how you come out of that, it can be, you know, you- you might be very burnt or, you know, maybe you come out a diamond. I fe- I felt like that was really cheesy [laughs].
Dan: 39:15: Yeah. That wouldn't -- that was a little rough [laughs].
Bekah: 39:21: I don't know. Sorry. Sorry for the bad- [laughs] the bad metaphor. But the- but the point is, kind of like what you were saying, Seth, this idea of -- you don't take it personally. And think about it, too, as part of that journey, right? I like to think of the hero's journey, and we're all the hero in our own story. And- and what the hero goes through, right? And the hero -- in- in the mythological structure of the hero, first of all, there are many, many challenges that the hero has to navigate. And that defines the trajectory of the journey. But also the hero never does it by themselves. There's always some type of mentor. There are allies that they have. There are resources or training or different things that enable them to continue to move forward. And in that way, you know, we can continue to push forward, but recognizing that we're not on this journey alone. There are other people that are there with us to support us through those tough times. And when things do get tough, then- then rather than, you- you know, pull away or try and do it on your own, leaning on some of those people or finding your allies or mentors or whatever can be the difference between being stuck in your journey and continuing forward.
Seth: 40:43: Mm. Yeah. That's a great point.
Bekah: 40:49: So ... your job. You are the technical product owner, and I'm just kind of circling back a little bit because I have never heard of anyone being a technical product owner before. So just to kind of get a better sense of what you're doing, can you talk us through, like, maybe one of the projects that you're working on or the things that you do find really interesting about that work?
Seth: 41:16: Sure. Yeah, I think it's -- it could be even considered a product manager, right? Not a project manager, but a product manager. So it's- it's an Agile term — 'product owner'. And it is basically ... I mean, again, it's the creative producer of- of software or whatever. Cuz it's- it's communicating with all the stakeholders, figuring out what you need, figuring out the direction of the product, what's the roadmap, what are the priorities, you know, breaking all that s- all that down into tickets, communicating all that to tech -- to -- communicating all those needs to developers, right? That's a special tran- transition there. And also, working with multiple stakeholders. So- so it's very -- it's- it's a -- it's an Agile term. It could also be pro- product manager ... I guess, maybe PM or whatever. But the technical side of it is because I was a front-end developer. And I was originally hired to be a front-end developer in the trenches building out Jamstack sites. And when this transition came, I was like, "Okay, I can see that." I was like, "But I still, like, have all this technical knowledge." And my CTOs, the one that said it, he was like, "We look at you more like a technical product owner." And I was like, "Great. Let's do it," you know? And what that means is I just understand what's happening on the development side, I understand what it takes to do a feature or understand what's happening. I'm just not the one doing it. And if -- and I -- but I'm still, like, spinning up, you know, I'm still doing front-end stuff where I'm like, you know, I'm doing all the repo stuff and doing the README, and going through all the steps of the README, and installing NPM packages, and all that kind of stuff. So I'm still in the technical area. I'm just not a front-end developer like I used to be. And, you know, what I love about it is the different communi- the different groups I work with. Like, I get to hang out with de- with designers and talk about UX and UI. I get to review designs, I get to offer tweaks and, you know, and I get to think of it as a developer. Cuz I know, "Oh, this image is huge. We, you know, how -- let's figure out what image size we need," or whatever that comes up from the developer mindset when talking to designers. And then I get to talk to, like, marketers and that -- that's a little bit out- outside of my comfort zone, but I'm a people person. So I can talk to them and ask what they need, and what, you know, like, "What- what do you- what do you need to demo?" Like, "What are you trying to ... what --," like, the first thing I did when I got to this job was I talked to -- like, I had like 20 meetings or something in, like, in no time at all. And I was talking to everybody about what are the pain points of- of the current demo -- the current demo ecosystem. Like, "You're taking this product, Uniform's platform, and you're demoing it to people. Wh-what- what are you missing? Like, what are they asking for? What do you wanna see?" And- and what it ended up being was, like, "Well, we got like three or four different demos that are all doing random things, and we need all those features and functionalities in-into consolidated redesigned, redeveloped demos," you know? So- so I get to -- and- and I- I really do look at it as, like, basically making client Jamstack sites. My- my client just happens to be my- my coworkers-
Bekah: 44:39: Yeah.
Seth: 44:39: -right? So they're asking me for stuff, and I'm saying, "Well, I- I can or can't do that this sprint," or, "Okay, cool. I'll work that in." And then I'm going over to tech lead and saying, "Hey, we need to do this." And he goes, "Okay, cool. We'll -- I'll- I'll work up the techs of -- the tech side of that." And we'll- we'll pass the issues down to the developers, and then developers deliver it to me. And I do user assurance testing where I'm like, "Okay, that's what I wanted. That's what we- what we need," and -- or I'll say, "Hey, this responsive, you know, layout is wrong," or, "Hey, you know, we need to do this different." And so, I like the idea -- or I like the -- my- my job in the sense that I get to talk to all these different people, right? When I was a front-end developer, it was me, by myself, banging my head against the wall, reading tutorials [laughs]. And, you know, then I would- then I would p-ping Virtual Coffee people and have, you know, different co-working sessions and stuff. But most of the time it was me, by myself. And so I love that part of it. I love that I get to ... understand these big features, and understand how to make them happen, but I don't have to be the one coding it. I really like that. And that's just because it was, like I said before, it was -- it could be super difficult to solve these technical problems. And I like being the one who's guiding it, encouraging, getting people stoked, updating our progress, you know? Knowing what they accomplished, like, "Man, you guys did a- a really hard feature. Good job," you know? And- and- and the way I communicate my tickets to them, my get up issues to them, they know that I know that stuff. You know what I mean? Cuz I'm able to be like, "Hey, can you- can you change this Tailwind class to so and so, instead of so and so, because the whatever," you know? So it's like I'm getting this -- to be developer adjacent. And so- so a product owner really just sees the product from ... it- it- it takes everything in, it plans the whole thing out, and then it, like, releases stuff out to the client. And then it takes feedback, puts that into the roadmap, and keeps the cycle going.
Bekah: 46:43: Yeah. I really love that. Because, well, for a number of reasons. But there are so many people that are coming into tech right now that it's oversaturated with people looking for junior positions. But what you've done is you've leveraged all of your non-technical skills or non-coding skills, and transferred them over into a job that makes you really good at that job. And so I think that, you know, sometimes people are developers, and- and they move over into different positions that are management and-
Seth: 47:17: Mm-hmm.
Bekah: 47:18: -maybe they're not well suited for those. They're really good-
Seth: 47:21: Mm-hmm.
Bekah: 47:21: -at being a developer. But also, it's -- that's not the only job that you can have. If you've gone to a bootcamp or if you've taught yourself how to code or if you have a CS degree, whatever, you know, there are these tech adjacent jobs that require you to have this knowledge and understanding, but also, give you space to bring all of the past history that you have doing-
Seth: 47:46: Mm-hmm.
Bekah: 47:46: -production -- producing stuff, and make you really -- give you the ability to really excel at what you're doing. And I think that -- I'm glad that you're here talking about that. Because I think that -- it would be great to have more people talking about that. And-
Seth: 48:02: Mm-hmm.
Bekah: 48:02: -getting more people in positions like you are in enabling those intimate collaborations to happen. So more people feel supported in tech because we also hear so many stories at Virtual Coffee of people who are in terrible jobs [chuckles].
Seth: 48:17: Yes.
Bekah: 48:19: And this- this -- having more people doing what you're doing, I think, helps to create tech -- create a much more welcoming tech community.
Seth: 48:31: Yeah. I-I-I appreciate you saying that. I mean, like- li-like I said, it's -- I mean, really, by the- by the grace of God, honestly, that it even happened. Cuz I wasn't -- while I was interested in it and I was- I was ... I- I could say that would be cool to do. I didn't really plan it. It just kinda happened. And at first I was like, "What do you mean I'm not gonna be coding out this stuff? I thought you hired me as an engineer." And it just -- it was just a classic start-up, "Well, now we now -- we need this. And we have a marketing engineering team, which handles the website, our integrations handles demos, so we want you to just -- we --," like, what they said -- this one thing they said to me, they said, you know, "The technical skills you have, a lot of people have. But not many people have the other skills you have." And I was like, "Awesome." Like, that's- that's why I believe in developing those kind of skills. I call 'em relational skills. But in- in this -- I find it a little bit easier to develop relational skills than tech skills sometimes. And I also find it more natural to have- have -- to be organizational. Seeing the big picture planning. But I happen to have a tech background. So it helps me understand how to talk to designers, and developers, and stuff. So, yeah. I just feel like -- I -- like, after all these years of like wandering around, and trying to figure it out, and like, sacrificing, and not giving up, and like, just pushing, pushing, pushing, pushing, I'm- I'm in the most comfortable place I've been in the -- and I'm -- I feel the happiest I've been in my career. Maybe ever. And so that's just such a blessing. I'm very thankful for that. And I really don't know how much control I had over it. I think it just ... I- I don't know. You could say, you know, that -- well, if you put yourself out there, things will happen or whatever. There's a lot of philosophies you could -- and beliefs you could say. But really, to me, it's just- it's just a natural progression that- that happened. And I was able to see what it was, and go, "Ah, yes. This is it. This is- this is it. This is it for me." And I feel like I'm thriving. And I've -- and like I said before, I feel valued. I feel empowered because of my company. Because I'm in- I'm in a more comfort zone. Where before, in front-end development, there were often times I was out of my comfort zone.
Bekah: 50:50: Yeah, I love that.
Dan: 50:52: Yeah. So that -- I mean, I pretty much just wanna wrap up here, I think. I think this seemed like a good place to stop in general. I- I mean, I personally really appreciated hearing your story. I -- and I- I liked about hearing about product owners and, you know, I- I love this idea of the producer, like, the creative producer and-
Seth: 51:09: Mm.
Dan: 51:09: -applying it to- to tech. I think it's- I think it's a fantastic approach. And-
Seth: 51:13: Yeah.
Dan: 51:13: -probably plenty- plenty of people are doing it and not using that name, you know, or not using --
Seth: 51:18: Exactly. Yeah.
Dan: 51:20: You know, I- I think that- that your instincts behind doing all that is -- are really spot on. And I think you're gonna be really valuable.
Seth: 51:29: Yeah. I appreciate that, man.
Dan: 51:31: I- I think it's really cool. And I think it's a- I think it's a very cool skill set and ... I don't know if you wanna call it talent or whatever, but like [chuckles], just a valuable thing for- for any company, you know what I mean? Anybody that's producing software to have somebody like that, you know?
Seth: 51:46: Yeah. Well, I mean, it's -- it takes so much to do anything, right? E-even a basic websites. It's- it's a lot to wrangle together and it's a lot to think about. And it -- so it helps to have a team of people who have different ... I guess you could say skill sets or leanings or whatever, but -- cuz not everybody is gonna be, you know, a great backend developer, but you're gonna need backend development. So it's just- it's just a part of the team. I- I look it -- as a team, as a whole. Just- just like when I was doing film, like, it takes a village to make something. In- in software, in, you know, web development is the exact same in- in most cases. But there are some people out there who can just do it by themselves and I've always looked at them in- in amazement. But I'm a big believer in just the team, the collaboration, someone to bounce ideas off of, you don't feel alone, the burden is shared, you know? All those things.
Bekah: 52:36: Yeah. I love that. Well, before we wrap up, is there any last words of wisdom or any projects that you wanna talk about?
Seth: 52:46: Not really on any projects. I mean, I just -- I did have a- a little win, this week. I had my first release ever in- in- in this role-
Bekah: 52:55: Mm-hmm.
Seth: 52:55: -this kind of role. Like, I was responsible for the -- everything that comes with the release. Now, granted it's an internal, right? I'm- I'm not running a product, you know, or you -- we have users. But -- so, it's a little bit- a little bit less pressure, maybe, cuz it's internal, and you got people who are forgiving, and you're working to get it out, and you don't have users yelling at you on Twitter or whatever. But ... but no. It's no- no particular projects. Just, you know, I- I just -- we've talked about this a lot in- in Virtual Coffee, like, transferable skills I think are really important. So anybody can -- I think there's a lot of things that people might know or might be good at they don't realize they could apply, and- and it-
Bekah: 53:33: Yes.
Seth: 53:33: -could be technical, but it's m- might be mostly relational, you know?
Bekah: 53:37: Mm-hmm.
Seth: 53:37: Like -- cuz you gotta remember that we're -- what we're doing -- like, people will hire you based on your -- how you are as a person. More so than your technical skills. Cuz you can teach techno -- technical skills, but you can't teach someone- teach someone to be nice or have integrity or have good character, you know? It's a thing you -- people setting. So I don't know where I'm going with this, but --
Bekah: 54:00: No, I think that's ... great advice.
Seth: 54:02: Just ... keep going [chuckles]. As an easy- as an easy, you know, outro, just keep- keep going and believe in yourself. And hopefully, you'll -- and something will -- something should pop up.
Bekah: 54:13: It's so great. Thanks so much for being here and sharing your story with us, Seth.
Dan: 54:16: Thanks, Seth.
Seth: 54:17: Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. I always love talking to y'all. So, looking forward to another time, and catch y'all online.
Bekah: 54:23: Bye.
Dan: 54:24: Sounds good. Bye.
Seth: 54:25: All right. See ya.
Dan: 54:30: Thank you for listening to this episode of the Virtual Coffee podcast. This episode was produced by Dan Ott and Bekah Hawrot Weigel. If you have questions or comments, you can hit us up on Twitter at VirtualCoffeeIO, or email us at podcast@virtualcoffee.io. You can find the show notes, sign up for the newsletter, check out any of our other resources on our website, virtualcoffee.io. If you're interested in sponsoring Virtual Coffee, you can find out more information on our website at virtualcoffee.io/sponsorship. Please subscribe to our podcast and be sure to leave us a review. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next week!

The Virtual Coffee Podcast is produced by Dan Ott and Bekah Hawrot Weigel and edited by Dan Ott.