VC Maintainers - Importance of Culture Citizenship

Show Notes:

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Virtual Coffee:

• Virtual Coffee: virtualcoffee.io
• Podcast Contact: podcast@virtualcoffee.io
• Bekah: dev.to/bekahhw, Twitter: https://twitter.com/bekahhw, Instagram: bekahhw
• Dan: dtott.com, Twitter: @danieltott

Transcript:

Bekah: 00:05

Hello and welcome to Season eight, episode one of the Virtual Coffee Podcast. I am Bekah, and this is a podcast that features members of the virtual coffee community. Virtual Coffee is an intimate tech community of people at all stages of their tech journey. And they're here on this podcast sharing their stories and what they've learned. And here to share their stories with you is my co-host Dan.

Dan: 00:32

What up Beck? How is it going?

Bekah: 00:35

It's going amazing. Dan, how's it going with you?

Dan: 00:38

I'm feeling pretty good. I'm excited about getting back into the podcasting thing. We got new season, whole new set of guests and we are kicking it off with, uh, maintainers podcast, which is always kind of fun to get the maintainers group together. And this, uh, episode kind of introduces our brand new maintainer, Julia. Yeah, we're very excited to have Julia on board as a maintainer for many, many, many reasons. And, um, and it was really great to sit down with, with, uh, Julia and Kirk and Bekah of course, and, uh, talk about lots and lots of cool stuff.

Bekah: 01:16

Yeah, it was great to be able to share kind of a little bit about the process that we took to finding a new maintainer. It did take a while. Um, but for us, the important factors we're thinking about somebody who's been active in our community is somebody who we know that invest time and who supports the mission of virtual coffee and who's willing to. Have conversations with community folks to continue to make this a welcoming and supportive space. So, uh, when we looked at our short list of folks that we think, uh, we thought might be a good maintainer for our community, Julia definitely stood out and being able to do all of those things. So we really appreciated bringing her in as part of our maintainers, but also hearing her share all of the different parts that helps to make our community strong.

Dan: 02:13

A Absolutely I and, and I'm. I'm really glad that we decided to do this as the first episode, cuz I think you'll hear all of, you'll hear like, evidence of all the reasons that we wanted Julia to be maintainer. Were excited about her. Um, she's like, she brings a lot of thoughtfulness and, um, I don't know, good intent to everything. Good intent is a strange phrase. So I'm gonna, uh, I'm gonna walk away from that one. But like, it, it, it's just the, the way that Julia approaches different things, approaches, conflict, approaches happy things, approaches all sorts of things is both unique And like, uh, I don't know. It's just, she's just like such a comforting presence. Empathetic. Yes. Exactly. Um, you know, and, and she is, I, before she was a maintainer, she, she would help. She has helped many, of our other members work through things. Um, she's helped. You know, when some members were having conflicts or whatever, uh, and nobody asked her to Right. You know, at all. Um, and she wouldn't insert herself, but would would just provide opportunities for people to, you know, maybe reflect a little bit different on, on some things. And, um, and I don't know. She's great.

Bekah: 03:25

Yeah, and I think that, you know, in this episode and beyond Virtual Coffee, we think that culture citizenship is a really important thing. And what is culture citizenship? It's one of those things that helps us to define what makes a really positive culture for a community. And so whether or not you're part of the virtual coffee community, you're starting your own community, or you're participating in a current community culture, citizenship is one of those things that ensures that everybody feels safe, heard, and understood. And so we take some time breaking down what that looks for us in this episode of Virtual Coffee to ensure that we are constantly. Doing our best to make sure that this is a positive space for people, that it's welcoming for our current and future members of the organization. And we wanna make sure that we can support not only our organization at Virtual Coffee, but other organizations out there that are starting or are trying to create a positive space for people. Because we know that it's important to have positive spaces for people in tech and beyond tech. And this is one of the ways that we can do it. We start every episode of the podcast, like we start every virtual coffee. We introduce ourselves with our name, where we're from, and what we do. And a random check-in question. We hope you enjoy this episode. Uh, our intro question today is, would you rather be stranded on a tropical island alone for a month or stuck in traffic for one day? My name is Bekah. I have a new job title. I'm developer experience lead at Open Sauce from a small town in Ohio, and I don't like to be stuck in traffic for 30 seconds, so I'll definitely go to that tropical island by myself.

Dan: 05:25

Um, hi, I'm Dan, and as always, I have questions. So the traffic, is it like you're not moving at all or are you moving little bits all the time? you could be moving. two different situations. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So that's, uh, that's the worst, right? Because One time I was on a road trip with my friend, I have two friends down to Savannah, uh, Georgia, and we got stuck in a traffic jam on like a bridge, but it was literally not moving at all. And we got out and played Frisbee, catch on the bridge, on the inter on the interstate. It was awesome. Uh, but yeah, no, if you're moving, like, if you're moving little bits all the time, that's the worst What if you're stopped? Would you rather be on the tropical island if you were stopped? uh, I mean, I'd have to think about it a little bit more, you know, but like, I don't know. I mean, also this is just like, happens with my life if I'm gone for a month? You know? You know what I mean? Like, you know, uh, I think I would, my responsibility, I would have to just choose the day, um, just because of kids and I suppose job and whatever, but, I feel like you're making me look bad now. a, tropical island for a left them all. awesome. there supplies on the island? No. Is it, is it, I mean, can you guarantee that there is stuff there to survive? Whether you have to like do it yourself, but like, you know,

Bekah: 06:47

There's definitely some water that you can drink and probably some leaves or tropical fruit that you can eat.

Dan: 06:54

Okay. Yeah, and like fish and stuff,

Bekah: 06:57

Maybe. There's definitely no toilet paper.

Dan: 07:00

There's leaves. Yeah. You just said right.

Julia: 07:03

well, and like whatever body of water surrounds it. You could

Bekah: 07:06

Natural B day,

Julia: 07:13

You said it, not me.

Dan: 07:15

uh, I wanna, I wanna go with island, but like, you know, I don't know.

Bekah: 07:19

you're responsible.

Dan: 07:20

Yeah, I don't know. It's tough being on an island would be sweet though. I always wanted to try that, you know, like the castaway thing. Always wanted to know, you know, just to know if I could, you know, survive it. So, I dunno.

Bekah: 07:35

Did you do the rest of your intro?

Dan: 07:37

Oh, I don't know. Uh, I'm Dan, I do web development stuff and I live in Cleveland, Ohio. Now I'm done. Kirk, it's your turn.

Kirk: 07:48

Oh, I thought, I thought we were going, if you're listening, you can't see this, but like in the Hollywood squares that we are, Julius Next and Clockwise, um, I have so many thoughts on. The incorrect things

Bekah: 08:04

Why don't you start with your intro and then you can tell us why we're wrong.

Kirk: 08:10

intro is less important. Uh, my name is Kirk. I currently live in Alberta, Canada. Um, I like functional programming. I'm one of the maintainers of virtual coffee. But the important part, so first of all, living stranded on a, like Irma is like not far away from my actual life, really.

Julia: 08:31

Minus the tropical

Kirk: 08:33

I mean, you know, that's, it's not that hard. You don't have to poop in the ocean if you don't wanna,

Bekah: 08:41

I did

Kirk: 08:42

That was definitely an opt-in moment there.

Bekah: 08:44

to be clear,

Kirk: 08:45

You like encouraged it as like option A for sure. And also Dan said that story, Dan, you said you were with your friend, we're your friends. And we don't remember this story, so that story can't be true. Um, anyway, I would do unspeakable things, so I have to avoid traffic for even a millisecond. And I would happily return to a traffic. for a month, um, actually did spend a week in like my dad's cabin, which had like no electricity, um, and just like an open tank for water for like a week before I went off to college. And it was fine.

Dan: 09:31

How to build cabins and open tanks from scratch, though.

Kirk: 09:35

Why not?

Julia: 09:37

A person of many talents,

Dan: 09:40

Is there a volleyball there that you can make friends with,

Kirk: 09:42

What? No. Okay. Like,

Dan: 09:45

know, from Castaway?

Julia: 09:47

you never know what's gonna wash up on the beach.

Kirk: 09:50

let's not let Tom Hanks' lived experience be the, be the example that we all must live by. okay, we're then, I'm done. This also reminds me of that episode of Naked and Afraid that was in fact filmed on my island, which is a hilarious episode because to spend the whole time going, it's so cold. There's no food. But like my island is literally the size of like Manhattan. Like, you're, you're, you're like never more than 30 minutes away from a village and there's like food everywhere. Like, none of that made any sense. So for those of you who've ever watched a Negative, afraid on Discovery Channel, it's not true. Except they're naked. They are naked,

Dan: 10:29

Are there clothes on our tropical island that you're stranded on? Well, I mean like are you wearing one set of clothes at least?

Julia: 10:36

Why does it matter?

Dan: 10:38

Well, I wouldn't wanna be naked on a tropical island for a month.

Bekah: 10:41

I mean, You can wear your own clothes. You don't get dropped on there naked.

Dan: 10:48

Okay. That's how I was just asking. I was just clarifying. Kirk, Kirk, Kirk brought it

Bekah: 10:51

wanna apologize to Dan's mom if she is listening to this podcast right now. I'm sorry. How out of hand this has gotten?

Dan: 10:58

Listen, inquiring minds want to know, you know, gotta know all the parameters to the question before you answer it.

Julia: 11:05

Well, I think it's my turn Um, I'm Julia. I am a developer. Educator. Um, And technical content creator. I work with developer tools companies. I live outside Seattle. Um, and I, yeah, I really hate traffic. Um, I think the only way I'd be okay with it is like if I knew I could get out of the car cuz it, that's one thing we have a lot of drawbridges around here and sometimes you get stuck with a drawbridge opening and like, I got stuck one time in the I five drawbridge between Seattle and Portland. Or like, right as you're going into Portland, when that thing opens, you're stuck for like two hours while it opens and closes. Like the whole interstate just stops. Um, and that's actually fine. Like we blasted some girl talk and had a dance party and that was terrific. Uh, but that was only two hours and you could get out of the car. So I don't, yeah, I mean, responsibilities. Responsibilities. Don't. The tropical island, I don't even like tropical climates.

Kirk: 12:25

I only think of drawbridge as an association of castles. So what I'm hearing you say is Seattle is filled with castles and you all just visit each other's castles from near castles.

Julia: 12:36

No, but

Kirk: 12:39

Right.

Dan: 12:42

Incorrect, sir.

Julia: 12:43

no, it's kind of, there's a lot of water. That's why. Careful

Kirk: 12:47

Drawbridges are for? They're for alligators.

Julia: 12:52

either. See, that's why I don't like tropical places. I don't. I choose neither. I.

Dan: 12:57

I don't think that was a choice.

Kirk: 13:04

You don't have to, he's naked.

Dan: 13:10

gotta do what you gotta do.

Bekah: 13:13

Okay, well now that we spent nine minutes going through that scenario, Uh, you might be wondering why are there four of us here when traditionally we've had three maintainers, and that's because yay, we've added Julia as a maintainer at virtual coffee. Uh, what does that mean? That means that the four of us work together to help look at the health of the community, the wellbeing of the members and the volunteers, and to make decisions about what's happening at Virtual coffee. And so for this podcast episode, I wanna talk a little bit about, uh, culture, citizenship and what it means to be a good member of a community or a positive member of a community. And that goes into conversation about why we added Julia as a maintainer to begin with and how that process went. And so for us, we. We're looking at, there was a, a need to be filled at virtual coffee. And so we were thinking about, you know, how can we continue to support the existing members and who would be a great person to help us with that. And Julia has been a really active member of Virtual Coffee. She has, uh, been leading the tech interview study group every week, supporting members, hangs out in the co-working room and is always very thoughtful in her approaches and responses to other people. And so it was really, um, Great to be able to think of Julia in that role and to know that she's somebody that we can have conversations with. And sometimes there's hard decisions to be made or sometimes there's complicated things that happen. And to know that we could be open and honest with each other. So I just wanna, first of all, thank Julia for all of the positive interactions, um, and support that she's brought to virtual Coffee since becoming a member. And then maybe kick off this conversation about what it means to be a positive community member.

Kirk: 15:27

yeah, it's, it's really great to have, uh, Julia join the maintainers. Um, and I mean, I don't know, we can, we can talk more about like how the process went, like how that kind of works. Um, and I feel like, I don't know, one of the things I was thinking about is that VC is a very, like, we try to be a very opt in community, you know, so like the roles and responsibilities of folks here, it's like either folks are like, Hey, I would like to try this thing, or I'm interested in this thing. Um, so, you know, and like on the one side of like us being like, Hey, we think Julia might be a really great fit for this role, it was also Julia being like, Hey, you know, like I really like this space and this feels like one of the ways I want to be a part of it. Right. So that was, I don't know that. That also feels like really important, like at both sides you're like, Hey, we think this could be a good idea and we can make this work. Um, and it did, and I'm super happy about

Julia: 16:28

Well, so far, I don't know. When's my first evaluation's like, oh, what are my OKRs?

Bekah: 16:38

No,

Julia: 16:39

I,

Dan: 16:40

Oh no.

Bekah: 16:41

no, we don't do this. Thanks here.

Dan: 16:44

Yeah, if you think we have OKRs set up for anything, uh,

Kirk: 16:49

if the first nine minutes of this conversation didn't indicate.

Julia: 16:57

yeah,

Bekah: 16:57

so, uh, let's take us in the direction of culture citizenship, cuz I know that's something that we all have talked about as maintainers in our conversation. And so, culture citizenship, there's a section in our code of conduct about that. And so let's see, the beginning of it says, and we'll link this in the show notes, one of the many goals of this code of conduct is to strengthen our community uplift and encourage each other and to recognize the positive effects of our community on the industry as a whole. Um, well I, let's start there. I feel like maybe I, we could break this down into separate conversations. So the idea of what are the positive effects of our community on the industry as a whole? What are we trying to do at virtual coffee that impacts more than the immediate group of people?

Dan: 17:46

I think there's a lot of things, uh, personally, I mean, sorry I don't jump in, but like I, I was in today in virtual coffee. We were talking about, uh, in my breakout room, we were talking about mentorship and you know, how to learn. And somebody was using, or thinking about using, uh, code, code mentors or some sort of service right? To, to basically help them learn, um, help them accomplish some tests. And we were talking, and this was a new member who hadn't, this was their first time and hadn't been in the slack. And we spent a lot of time just talking about, um, our community and how we've, like, how virtual coffee has like, helped each other. Um, learn how to learn, you know, and learn how to, and especially along with that, learn how to ask for help and also learn how to give help in. Constructive ways. And I personally, just speaking for myself, have, I feel like I have taken a lot of those lessons, uh, over the last few years. A few years, two years, three years. Yeah. We're coming up on three years. Right. Anyway, um,

Bekah: 18:50

We've completed three

Dan: 18:51

we have completed three years. And, uh, that's what I said. And, um, uh, I'll just have my editor edit that out. I'm just kidding. It's me. Um, and we have, all right, I lost track of what I was saying. Oh yeah. My personal experience is I have become, I've, I feel like I've become a better, um, developer just from learning how to learn better, right. And learning how to ask questions better and learning like what kinds of things can I ask questions about it, at what point do I ask the question, what point do I form? Like how do I formulate a good, a good question to get some help and or generate some discussion? And I feel like just as there's a lot of aspects, and this is the only one of 'em, but, um, Creating better developers, honestly, is like a, a way that we are, uh, you know, maybe having some positive impact, impact on the greater developer community and not just developers, but better. Um, I don't know, people, I don't know. I, I like, I I want to, you know, we're, we're not all developers, but I feel like a lot of these lessons apply to, to everybody. Um, and so, I dunno, that's, that's my bit. First thing that jumped in.

Julia: 20:02

Yeah, no, I think that's, I think the idea of like better people, it's not just like a throwaway, I mean, the purpose, the purpose of any of the work that we do in the end is about making people's lives better, right? Like what's, you know, the, the end goal of any piece of software hopefully has something to do with improving, improving people's lives in some way. Um, and I, I feel like that's not just a, an empty. It's like an, you know, an empty value promise. You know, it's not just marketing speak within the VC community, like people really take that idea to heart. Um, and it gets talked about and expanded on in a lot of different ways within the community. And I, I have to imagine that that spills over into, um, what people are doing in their jobs. You know, I've, like, with my background as an educator and like working in this sort of developer experience, developer education space, like I've, worked with other VC members to kind of f flesh out proposals for changing processes in their workplaces. Um, And, you know, that kind of embrace those, like that shared value, those shared principles. Um, and I, I think it's, I think it's really good to have a community where people are actually talking about those things separate from, like, anybody who's worried about the budget or, you know, the, the performance reviews. Like having those conversations and seeing what other people are doing with those principles, like independent of your workplace. I'd like to think it has value. I don't really know how to, how to be sure. But.

Bekah: 22:20

What's interesting too, um, I think it was Mark Newnan who works at Cypress, posted about where are the questions, maybe the intro questions that we use in virtual coffee. So I may want to be using these for my team meetings, right? And so even simple things like that, I think that there's value to be able to see like, hey, this is something that works in our community and I wanna ex. Extend it to my other parts of other communities that I'm involved in. And one of the things that, one of the ways that I like to think of virtual coffee is there's this idea of like the ripple effect, right? Like you make an impact on someone and that ripples out to the next person, and then they pass that on to the next person. And so if we can interact with each other very positively, if we can share a supportive environment, if we can help people understand what a positive space looks like, then that's going to continue to move out into the tech industry. So although we cannot support everybody being virtual coffee members, hopefully through that extension of our members into other communities, they'll still be able to experience that positivity as well.

Julia: 23:28

Right, right. Yeah, for sure. Like I think, you know, other communities that I'm involved in, other organizations, like even outside the tech industry, I reflect on conversations that I've had inside vc. That inform like kind of how I relate to people or ideas that I might suggest in those communities too. So,

Kirk: 23:53

Yeah. And I think there's also like a real, there's a real nice, like, I was gonna use the phrase value proposition, that's not really it, but just, uh, what do you call it? Like, uh, like gut check. Like we have a lot of cut check moments where people kind like, Hey, I just started a new job. Or like, Hey, I'm gonna have this conversation if my manager, Hey, I just had this conversation with someone. My workplace like, what is your take on this scenario? And this is one of the few spaces where I feel like I'm gonna get. Like reasonable, meaningful responses, you know, and people will try their best to answer earnestly. Um, and then everyone might not have like, be in perfect agreement. Like the amalgamation of those things like usually puts me in like a, a better place or whoever's asking the question, you know, and folks can feel reasonably assured, like, this is a bunch of responses of like, my best interest in mind. I can sort of take those and kind of go with it. So, you know, like we have the help parenting channel where people ask, sometimes ask like very specific questions like, oh, I can't like get this a diiv to diiv. Um, but people also ask questions like, I'm about to have like, my first performance review. Like what should I expect? It's not only a place to like set expectations of what is maybe like the standard or usual behavior. It's also a place to set expectations of like how you should advocate for yourself. Um, what behaviors like should, you know, like it's, it's, it's a great place to sort of establish like, The right thing to do versus just like the thing that happens, uh, which is a nuance that sometimes feels lost in like the greater tech world. Like people are like, oh, well this goes like this, which isn't the same as like this is how this should go, or this is how it could go if everyone involved was like trying to act like more empathy to get towards a good solution. So I like the space for that. That feels pretty good.

Dan: 25:40

Yeah. And I think another valuable thing that, um, virtual coffee does that maybe some other communities don't do, and there's lots of other great communities out there in the world, but, uh, where, you know, our, our, like, our focus on intimacy and face-to-face interactions and, you know, our, our coffees, which are, are like main, you know, obviously our main thing. Um, want to say that I, I feel like that is, is, proving to people the importance of, of these, of, kinds of effects, right? And lots of times, you know, people get too involved in like Slack or whatever, and async communication and all that stuff is important and, and valuable, especially on. You know, international teams, teams of time zones and everything like that. Um, but there is something to be said about the, small interactions. These, like intimate, you know, uh, not just our coffees, right? We have our coffees in our bigger rooms. We also have like the co-working room, right? Which is another like little, almost like a little community inside our community. Uh, and, um, I, and lots of people talk about the coworking room as like one of the special things of, of virtual coffee. And um, uh, Justin, one of our members just did a, made a coworking room set up, uh, for his, for his company, and, uh, was pretty excited about that too, which, which is cool. And I guess what I wanna say is like, the importance and the value of these sort of interactions, um, is something that's hard to quantify and is something maybe hard to explain, you know? Uh, but experiencing it, um, is something different. And that's, that's one thing that our community does really well. And I think another way that we sort of can to make the greater world, you know, better, a better place for people is, uh, is sharing this sort of interaction and, um, sharing this process, you know, uh, and, and letting people in the world, uh, try to practice it on their own.

Bekah: 27:40

Yeah, and I think that's really important. I know that we talk a lot about there's a value for community for every person, so we encourage a lot of people to find the right community for them. Um, but then also understanding that there's a value for community for the entire industry. It benefits the industry when people find community and a sense of belonging. Um, because then they can take what they learn in those spaces and they can apply it to where they are and the things that they're doing. Um, the next part of the culture citizenship definition that we have, I really like it's as if you see someone who's making an extra effort to ensure our community is welcoming, friendly, and encourages all participants to contribute to the fullest extent. Please recognize their efforts. And that seems really nice because right now, um, it is virtual coffee. Um, Community Kindness month, I think because this is, we've completed our third year of virtual coffee. We're moving into our fourth year, and that's one of those things that, that positive, recognizing the positive interactions, recognizing the people who are giving back, I think is a really important part of setting the tone for what a good community looks like. Um, and so, you know, we are very, very thankful for all of the people who volunteer at Virtual Coffee in different capacities and who provide feedback and who are willing to talk us through different discussions and have challenging conversations with us. Because I think that, you know, even in the hard conversations, there's a lot of beauty and understanding that comes out of that because we can work on listening, we can work on accepting feedback, and we can grow from that as well.

Julia: 29:24

Yeah, I think that it's also kind of an important distinction maybe for people who are newer to the community is part of, know, I haven't used Code Mentor or one of those sort of paid spaces before, but I think it's really important to kind of continually recognize that everybody who's part of VC is doing it. Because they wanna be there and because it is bringing value to them. but that we need to not take that for granted, you know? Um, it's really important to acknowledge and show, you know, be thankful, you know, act proactively, kind of showing your gratitude to people. yeah, I don't know. I just, and I think about that particularly like with those hard conversations that like, part of being part of a community, it's like if you want it to be a better place, if you want people to grow, sometimes you're gonna have to. Do a little work to help people grow, right? Like we grow through our relationships with others. Um, but, and, and if you, and like if you are on the receiving end of somebody else's emotional work, like it's important to acknowledge that and thank them for it and like be gracious about the work that they are investing in you and in the community. Um, and I don't, I'm kind of rambling, but I don't know. I just, I think that that's, um, it's something that maybe is not immediately obvious how important that is. I think.

Kirk: 31:20

Yeah. Um, like while we were talking about this in sort of like the earlier point, you know, like the difference between like hearing code mentors, um, it's really important that like the intrinsic value of like being a VC member is just like being a VC member. Like this is a space where you know, as much as possible, like your worth is not determined by like, how many lines of Python you write or like your industry experience or your job title, or like, You know, any of that, you know, like as a VC member, you are like a whole and fully formed person, and like you as a person are the thing that like, makes you like wonderful and valuable and appreciated and like everything else, sort of like, I don't know, the, the only sort of thing there is that again, like coming back to the code of conduct and like trying to treat each other the way we wanna be treated and like willing to have these conversations and like, that's, that's the gist of it. But, you know, it's, it's one of the things that I, I appreciate the most about this community is that you can come in this community sort of wherever you are at. You know, and in that, in that realm of like making an effort at like stewardship and making an effort at empathy and making an effort, like listening and understanding. And then you know, like there's no VC member tier, you know what I mean? Like, um, And you're never gonna like be evaluated here by like your productivity or by, like, that's, that's not the goal. which is difficult to find like in other tech spaces cuz they're usually so hyper-focused on a thing or a product or a tool or a lifestyle where you find yourself like having these like architectures starting to be assembled and then we end up in this place, which I think can be really dangerous. Where like, um, I don't know the words like culture, stewardship, community like, can fall by the wayside because we go like, oh, well this person's good at this, or this person's like, been here for a long time. And I think one of the things that like I try, I try like more to challenge myself on is like doing those objective moments of, you know, Because I've been here for a long time, I have so much context that comes with me into like every single interaction and like finding ways to step back and be like, oh, am I actually making a good decision here? Or is this like the weight of my experiences, like pushing me in one direction or another. And then always trying to come back to like, am I doing the best job for all the people involved in whatever's happening, including myself sometimes. but that's not a one and done or that's not like a Oh, okay, I've nailed communication. I am done learning the end. that's never gonna happen. And especially now, now like membership is opening in, we do have a constant cycle of new members coming in, returning members coming in, different people interacting in different ways. And just like, it's really important to always have the rudder of. What's the thing I'm gonna try and use whenever I'm in this space to try and like, make it as good as possible for all the people in this space. And like, we always, like, always comes back down to am I actually listening to the other person? Am I actually trying to understand the perspective that they're coming with? And like, am I willing to come in with the idea that like my stance might not be the best stance or the appropriate stance or like, I have something to learn here. You know? and that's not easy, right? Like, that's not for free, that's not automatic. Even though I think like we would like it to be, it would be nice if we could say, oh yeah, like my empathy meter is always on max and I'm doing great, but sometimes it's not. and that's just like being people and I don't know, going all the way back to the start of this conversation, what Julia was saying, like, that's, that's why I'm here. I'm like here to like practice being like a person. Being a person means like also being a person when I really don't wanna be, when I'd rather be like Chad, g p t, I never wanna be like Chad, g p t, but you know,

Julia: 35:29

when I was teaching high school, I used to sometimes say that like, part of my job was helping my students learn to be people. And not that they're not people, but like, they're not fully realized people. And, uh, yeah, sometimes I'd like to just be a teenager again and not have to like be fully accountable for myself. But, um, the flip side of that is that I think this and this is part of what made VC so valuable to me when I first joined the community. which was a little more than two years ago, is like, this is a place Where people really are valued for their whole selves. Like, I found so many opportunities to give, even when I was like a rank beginner in the tech industry. there's still so much opportunity to contribute and teach and share and, and help. you know, if you, if I think the flip side of that is like that we do want people to be like fully accountable human beings. Like, not act like teenagers. Not that there's anything wrong with teenagers, but.

Dan: 36:51

There's nothing wrong with teenagers.

Julia: 36:52

Yeah,

Kirk: 36:54

As a former teenager, I can say there are a lot of things wrong with me as a teenager.

Julia: 36:58

they're

Kirk: 36:58

wasn't terrible, but you know.

Julia: 37:00

That's what.

Bekah: 37:01

Well, I think, you know, a, as part of this idea of culture, citizenship and all of the things that we're talking about, and, uh, in some ways, like we're in our toddlerhood at virtual coffee, right? And so, like, we are still growing and as the community grows, things change, change, the members grow. Um, there's new perspectives, there's new, um, things that you need to understand new, um, ideas that you need to be sensitive to or, um, often good opportunities for listening rather than responding, which is something that I can say I'm working on. Um, and I'm better than when I first started. But, you know, a lot of times there were things that I, I wanted to react to immediately. And I think like, you know, there's a, that growth that you have as. There you have to, you know, listen and, uh, be willing to understand different aspects of what people are saying to you. And I think that, um, that's really important when we talk about this idea of focusing on the impact of our actions rather than our intent. And I think that's one of those things that can be really tricky to understand. Um, does anybody want to explain what that means?

Kirk: 38:20

I'll give it a try. Um, yeah, no, I feel like this is, I don't know, this is like one of the most important things, as Bekah said, like, we're, we're three years in storming, norming, forming. What's the fourth one performing? I can't remember. There's a whole thing about it. I did a class one. Um, but yeah, there's, there's this being a bunch of people in a space, being a bunch of different people in a space, being a bunch of different people in a space where the like boundaries are like, Good communication, like good stewardship and all these things inevitable, inevitably you end up in a space where it's like, sometimes I'm having conversations or I maybe always be having conversations where I probably think I'm right, but like what happens if someone else doesn't think I'm right? Right. What happens if like most people don't think I'm right or you know, what happens if like someone else is sing wrong, but I still think it. Right. And like trying to, to navigate that. Um, and you know, just like for, for context before, it's like in, in our language and whenever we talk about official VC language, there are a couple things we always want to establish. Like we always want to have our documentation the way that like makes it clear. The values, like we're encouraging people to like try and like inhabit like, but in a way that doesn't try and like suppress themselves, right? It's like, hey, these are things that are good for the group. And not in a way of like trying to squeeze your behavior into some manner too, but just like providing the guardrails to like just help a community flourish. And, you know, I don't see online, like virtual communities are very similar just like I r L communities and the fact that like you have to share spaces with people who may have slightly different values in you, but you still have to kind of make that work. Um, and yeah. Then getting back to sort of the question of like actions and intent. sometimes or frequently I feel like almost all the time, like we have good intent. Um, there are very few people who come in with bad intent and one thing I like about this community, I can say like, I don't know. I can count on one hand the amount of times where I feel like someone is coming into an interaction with bad intent. Uh, but for whatever reason, the actual action, you know, like was probably not like, received in the way that they expected it to. Uh, and then what I tend to feel like, regardless of the side or like where you are in that conversation, there's always an opportunity for like, am I having this conversation in a way that like, gets me to what I want? And typically the thing I want is like, I want this other person to understand my perspective and be able to receive where that's coming from. Um, and sometimes like it's very easy to do yourself a disservice in the way you do that. Right. And I don't know, that's, that's usually like most of the time that's where like communication breaks down where people either feel like I'm not being heard, uh, I'm not being understood. Or sometimes like, I'm not being like empathized with like, and I don't know, navigating that I feel like is probably the crux of human interaction, right? Like it's, it's the thing like we, we try and teach each other all the time and that willingness to be like, I don't know if I agree with this person in this moment, but you know, like I wanna have the conversation that like, brings me closer to understanding where they're coming from. And even if the ultimate idea at the end is that, like, I still don't necessarily agree like what they're doing, but there's probably a way to get like why they're doing it or like what are the themes or what's going through their mind as they're doing it. Um, the other tricky thing that's been brought up a lot of times cuz you know, especially. maintainers, like we spend a lot of time just talking to members, right? Members come to us and they tell us what's going on, and we always have this open policy where you can always tell us like what you're feeling, what you're thinking about interactions, what are your thoughts in this space, you know, like it's, I think like, like we try and be a safe space always for people to share their experiences and thoughts and feelings. Um, a lot of times folks will say like, I'm not sure if I navigated this well or I'm not sure if I did the right thing here. Um, or you know, like very frequently, like most, you know, in the, in the coffees are on video and we're speaking, but you know, a lot of VC communication happens in the Slack and that's all text based and context is like super hard when it's text-based, you know, and the thing you sort of never get is like a body language or people's emotional reactions or just like where they're coming from from the day and there's a, I don't know, there's a bunch of things in there and I feel like it all boils down to we are always going to be trying to say things of good intent. Um, if that is received negatively, like that's where like the actual conversation begins. Like, where do we go from there and can we get this back to a good place? And sometimes like, well, can I get this back to a good place alone? Or maybe I need to ask for support. And that's another place where the maintainers can like, be a great value and a great asset, you know. Um, but always, always, always this idea of, at least for me, coming into every conversation with the person I'm talking to, um, is a good and wonderful person. They have like, they have a need to communicate and like values that they want to share and express and be understood. And it is in my job, like it is in like, it's kind of like, I don't know, for me, My duty is one who wants to like keep this space as good as it is to like recognize that and then use that as my lead into further conversation. Even if the conversation ends up being like, Hey, this action like may not be in line with our community standards, or, Hey, this response may not be in line of our community standards, but it's never Yeah, go

Julia: 44:40

Hey, this response may not be in line with like, Who, you know, how you see yourself, right? Like, and that, and that could be a hard thing to say to somebody directly, but I think it's a, I think it's an important thing to reflect on, right? That sometimes the things that we say and do, like maybe aren't, maybe we, you know, I don't think we can expect perfection out of anybody. I'm not perfect, you know, like I've said and done things that I'm like, oh shoot. But like, part of it is owning that. Like when you, when you, you know, when somebody says, Hey, that hurt. Um, being like, oh, sh well shoot, that was not my plan. Like, you know, help me un you know, if, if you can help me understand why that was hurtful, you know, if it's not immediately obvious And that's kinda what I mean about like, if you want the community to grow, like, you know, I, I know that part of the conversation around like assume good intent me maybe being not a great standard is that it puts the burden on the person who is like in a less powerful position. and so I think like the way to maybe handle that to some extent is for, is for people who, whose intent is being challenged to be like, oh, like now is the time for me to step back and like, and act, you know, and sort of actively seek to remediate whatever harm I might have caused. Like I. It's not that we expect people to be a hundred percent perfect all the time, it's that we expect people to try to do better. and I just like, in terms of simple strategies, one of the things I really like that Bekah that you do is that you'll, you'll say like, I don't know what I think about this right now. Like, I'm gonna think about this and come back to this. And like, we could probably all stand to do that. I dunno, I did sort of cut you off. I.

Kirk: 47:00

No, I, I think those points were great. And yeah, like in a, sometimes in a time where it feels like you're always expected to have a stance and a strong stance and an immediate stance on whatever topic become your way. I do think it's very powerful sometimes to be like, I am not in the place, or I am not ready to have this conversation yet. Um, and just like gracefully allow yourself that time to kind of get there. Uh, but yeah. The last thing I was just sort of thinking about in like the context of all this, it kind of reminds me of exercise in a weird way. Like in a sense like exercise is like being like sometimes uncomfortable for the sake of like long term comfort. You know, like when you finish doing like, like your muscles hurt, your legs hurt. It's like, but it's acute. And like that is assumed to be a good thing. Like in the general scheme, like that's a good thing. Chronic pain is bad. So a lot of times when I think about community interactions, you know, like what's going through my head is not like, oh, there were no uncomfortable conversations this week. This was a good week. Right? Because that's not a, like, that's not the right frame of mind. It's like, oh, we had some income from conversations, but we navigated in them and like got to a good place. That feels good for me. Like that's like acute discomfort that leads to long-term comfort because then like, we're now more empowered to have those conversations and everyone can feel safe having like, I don't know, and this, this is like a very negative thought, but I always have this idea of like, empowerment is like still feeling safety in moments of discomfort, you know? And like being able to, to like dis like establish what is like long-term chronic. Bad, and like moments of bad, I feel like I can deal with this moment of bad, um, because the other people around me, like we're all working together to get out of this, you know, it's like being on an island with a bunch of other people or being on an island naked by yourself and pooping in the water. You know, they're fairly, they're very different. but yeah, and that is, you know, like, and the reason why the maintainers, like what we're having this conversation now is like, as we've just collected a bunch of like, surveys from the members and we've been having all these conversations really, really, really like putting in the time into thinking about, um, how we want the community to move forward as a community. What does good stewardship look like? What does support look like? What does moderation look like? And all these conversations kind of come into play. And like, the big answer is, it's hard and complicated, but like, I. One of the pillars is if, for me at least, if we end up in a place where when a difficult conversation happens, there's not a moment of feeling like panic or loss of control for the people involved and like, okay, we're here now, but we can probably get out of here in a good place. That's what feels good to me. Not a space where no one ever does any difficult conversations, cuz I don't think that's possible.

Bekah: 50:02

Yeah, and I think when that happens, you're l. Using opportunities to grow, right? Like you're settling for not being uncomfortable. And one of the great things about being part of a supportive community is that you have those opportunities to be uncomfortable. You can fail and you can learn from that experience, right? You can ask for forgiveness, you can ask for feedback and to grow. And so I think that, yeah, sometimes it does get exhausting having those hard conversations, but like you're saying, the it is valuable to have those hard conversations and to figure out how to work through them.

Kirk: 50:39

Yeah. And to, to your point, just sort of like, also, one of the nice things about an online space is like, again, a lot of times, like you have the buffer to choose when you want to opt in to like, I. There's not always a sense of like, immediacy, even though that's how we feel, you know? Like, and it's, it's okay to say, hey, like, well, I need to take a step back right now. Um, not because this is unimportant, but because this is important, you know? And I wanna like come back when, when I can, like, when I can learn and grow from this as best as I can and like I can like meet people where they are. And when I can empathize for other people, that's something I really want to do. Um, and I'll, I'll say this conversation, I'll mention the conversation I had once with my dad. My father as a interesting man, but one time he was like, you know, Kirk, you and your brother are so nice. You're such nice guys. I'm not nice like you are. And I was feeling not in my most empathetic place at that point in time with my father. And I was like, no man. We just try to be nice. Like we're not, there's nothing magical about whatever is is happening. You know, like it's just trying really hard sometimes to like, even, even in the moments where I don't want to, still trying to maybe do my best and if I can't do my best, I take five minutes. I'm like, okay, maybe I can do it in five minutes and then maybe I can do it in 10 minutes. You're like, maybe I need to like eat a sandwich first. Many times I need to eat a sandwich first. You know, that it's not, it's not something that goes away. And I think like if you sort of like never choose to go into those moments, then you're kind of like opting out of some important things. But also in the context of all of this, like we all have our lived lives and we all have our traumas and we all have our journeys. So it's also a thing that like, I never wanna like force on anyone. I just want to say that like I would like this community to be a space where it is a space where you can also do those things, you know, and feel like even though it's hard in the moment, it's gonna be like good in the long run. That is not what I told my dad I was, I was, I had to apologize after.

Bekah: 53:02

I was gonna say that's a really great way to end this episode, but maybe it's still a really great way. Apologies are important and useful too. Uh, does anybody else want to wrap us up in this conversation?

Julia: 53:16

I don't know. I'm just imagining perks, like trying to say that. Try anyone trying to say that to their father. Just I feel like that's a tough dynamic. Um, and, and that's like maybe there're maybe there's a place to, to wrap things up. Sometimes the dynamics between two given people like are kind of rough and, you know, we're all here to, to help you navigate and hopefully, you know, help people see the, the good in each other. And, so I'm from a very quiet family. I don't know. We're just not, we do a lot of not talking and, my partner's family is the opposite. And I very, I, I remember the first time I like went to visit with their whole family there and it was like there was one piece of chicken left after everybody had eaten and it was like, Oh my God. People are gonna come to blows over a chicken thigh, like, what is going on? and I was like, I was really stressed and I was like, oh my God, I can't, I can't handle this. Like I'm getting indigestion. Um, and afterward, and I kind of, I was like, you guys, you guys like, it's gonna be okay. There's more to eat. And people were looking at me like, there was something wrong with me. Like, why is she reacting this way to like, what was for them a very ordinary conversation about who, who had the right to the last piece of chicken. And like, there's no right way or wrong way to communicate in that situation. and like sometimes you're gonna get freaked out by the way other people communicate. And it doesn't mean they're bad people and it doesn't mean they're actually going to come to blows over a piece of chicken. and it doesn't mean that they think there's anything wrong with your communication style either. curiosity is really powerful. and I think in those moments where you like, feel a little apprehension about other people, like it's good to try to turn that apprehension into some curiosity. And,

Kirk: 55:45

That's the new podcast name not sent to my dad. Um, can I do like one more call to action maybe. Um, yeah. So like one last thing, you know, as we're, it's like if you're listening and like any of this seems interesting to you or important to you or valuable to you, again, like just super encouraging everyone, reach out to us, reach out to the maintainers. We're always looking for feedback from members. Um, we're always happy to talk. I'm always happy to talk. And you know, like we're, we're really trying to like, in the idea that like we will constantly, like we will never stop trying to improve these things and make them better. So we're always open to hearing what people have to say. So it is never too late. Like, don't, like give, missed your chance, what the surveys are done to like, talk to us. You can always talk to us and just let us know. And every single piece of feedback from any member here helps us, uh, make this a better space. and my actual final thing is, Julia, that attitude of your is over. That chicken is not gonna help you on the desert island. You need

Julia: 56:44

But I'm by myself.

Kirk: 56:46

are you really? There's dangers out there.

Julia: 56:52

I think I'm by myself. Bekah, am I by myself?

Bekah: 56:56

Um, maybe there are alligators, I guess.

Dan: 57:03

Just, just don't drink, don't drink the water on the east side of the island.

Julia: 57:07

eat with your left hand. That's

Bekah: 57:09

Well, thanks everybody for listening to this episode of the podcast. We hope that you found some value in the conversation that we had. Uh, and thank you If you're one of our community members for sticking with us.

Julia: 57:23

Hi. Thanks everybody.

Dan: 57:25

Thanks everybody. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Virtual Coffee Podcast. This episode was produced by Dan Ott and Bekah Hawrot Weigel, and edited by Ashley Mulder. If you have questions or comments, you can hit us up on Twitter @VirtualCoffeeIO or email us at podcast@virtualcoffee.io You can find the show notes, sign up for the newsletter, buy some VC merch, and check out all of our other resources on our website, virtualcoffee.io If you're interested in sponsoring virtual Coffee, you can find out more information on our website at virtualcoffee.io/sponsorship Please subscribe to our podcast and be sure to leave us a review. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next week.

The Virtual Coffee Podcast is produced by Dan Ott and Bekah Hawrot Weigel and edited by Dan Ott.